'Merry Christmas' or 'Happy Holiday' - Page 6

wolf · 12-25-2005, 12:37 AM

Rich, do you have any insight into this issue ...

Was there any gift-giving associated with Chanukah before, say, about the 1940s (just guessing at time of culture change)? What do presents have to do with the bottle of oil lasting 8 days, anyway?

Do modern Hasids exchange gifts during Chanukah, or do they just do the prayers over the candles?

Nunya · 12-25-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Rich, do you have any insight into this issue ...

Was there any gift-giving associated with Chanukah before, say, about the 1940s (just guessing at time of culture change)? What do presents have to do with the bottle of oil lasting 8 days, anyway?

Do modern Hasids exchange gifts during Chanukah, or do they just do the prayers over the candles?

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are just rearranging their prejudices."

William James

richlevy · 12-25-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Rich, do you have any insight into this issue ...

Was there any gift-giving associated with Chanukah before, say, about the 1940s (just guessing at time of culture change)? What do presents have to do with the bottle of oil lasting 8 days, anyway?

Do modern Hasids exchange gifts during Chanukah, or do they just do the prayers over the candles?

Well, first, here is a Hanukkah story I had never heard before. Hanukkah is the celebration of a revolt, and as usual, insurgents do not play by the rules and the women are often more dangerous than the men.

I had heard in Hebrew school (say that three times real fast) that the present giving was fairly recent. This site says the same thing. Of course, we could both be wrong and repeating what we were told. BTW, it also mentions the story about Judith.

Quote:

In remembrance, a candle is lit each of the eight days of Hanukkah. Children receive gifts of gelt (in remembrance of the coins minted by the new independent Maccabee state) or money and play games of dreidel (a spinning four-sided top.) The tradition of receiving a gift on each of the eight days of Hanukkah is fairly recent. Since Christians exchange gifts at Christmas, Jews have come to exchange gifts other than coins at Hanukkah, which comes at the same time of the year.

Cain · 12-25-2005, 07:20 AM

Haha

Experience a satisfactory non-denominational winter gift festival citizen

And remember to lighten up a bit, It's Christmas for fuck sakes!

Urbane Guerrilla · 12-26-2005, 05:11 AM

I understand the greater prevalence of gift-giving on Hanukkah to have been the influence of the Christian Christ Mass and the traditions that have grown up around it -- the Yule log and the Christmas tree are sort of competing traditions -- in a sort of cultural cross-pollination. A once rather minor holiday is becoming a bigger, grander affair. Evolution in progress, please design intelligently if at all.

My Jewish mother-in-law, rest her soul, did me the favor of teaching me correct pronunciation of the holiday even when it got spelled Chanukah. We never did get around to discussing a heroine, a tent peg, and that general, though. The mallet wouldn't have gotten the job done, or was she determined to nail the guy to the spot? At first I thought that was the Judith story... oh well. Something else to put on the reading list.

Other holidays are getting a cross-pollination, too. American-style Halloween celebrations with costuming and hijinks are becoming more and more popular in Mexican Day of the Dead, and of course Day of the Dead stuff is all over southern California anyway. All parties concerned are amused. The Halloween influence is being taken south by Mexicans returning after a stay up north, and by families with relatives on both sides of the border, which is a very frequent occurrence.

12-26-2005, 05:36 PM

Here is a little CHRISTMAS story from the center of Christian Fundie Whackos aka Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family and that Dobson idiot.

Yesterday (CHRISTMAS Day) I had occasion to go to a convenience store to buy some half and half. The clerk there was ranting to any customer that would listen how she had placed a sign saying Merry CHRISTMAS on the door, despite the fact that the Jews didn't want her to do this. She went on and on about the Jews and loudly proclaimed that she'd be damned if she said "Happy Chanuka" to ANYONE! I stared at her in astonishment, paid for my half and half, and loudly said "PEACE ON EARTH!" to her and everyone else in the store as I went out the door.

We've come a long way. NOT!

Elspode · 12-26-2005, 10:08 PM

You're just upset because Christians have the secret to Life Eternal and The Truth, and they're right and you're not, aren't you?

BTW, too bad you aren't a Jew, because you could have sued the shit out of the c-store chain for religious persecution. I mean, you would have felt threatened and demeaned, and you'd have had your civil rights trampled and all, because of all the stuff the cashier was saying. Oh, wait...I'm sorry...its everyone else who is persecuting the Christians these days, right?

I've got to get straight with The Truth.

12-26-2005, 11:45 PM

Tell you what, Patrick. If I were Jewish instead of Buddhist/Native American/Pagan, I doubt if the "Merry Christmas" sign would have bothered me any more than it did when I walked in the door - which was NOT at all. However, by time I walked out of the store, I wanted to tear that "Merry Christmas" sign down, rip it to shreds and set fire to the fragments. I can't imagine how I would have felt if I had been Jewish, but you're right, the only ones who are persecuted these days are the fundies. Umm hmm.

fargon · 12-27-2005, 08:58 AM

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!! God said it I belive it, and that settles it...

Trilby · 12-27-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fargon

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!! God said it I belive it, and that settles it...

Oh, Pshaw. God said a lot of things.

Elspode · 12-27-2005, 08:44 PM

I especially like that thing about, if your wife is infertile, you get to do her sister so you can have sons. Gotta love a good patriarchal sort of ethos...

xoxoxoBruce · 12-28-2005, 10:38 PM

In Boston, they busted an Asian Supermarket for being open on Christmas.

Urbane Guerrilla · 12-31-2005, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

I especially like that thing about, if your wife is infertile, you get to do her sister so you can have sons. Gotta love a good patriarchal sort of ethos...

There's more to it than that, Elsp. Living offspring were the Social Security of the era. Enough nephews would be almost as good for keeping you in your old age as a few sons. The widow with no adult sons was in a world of hurt, shekel-wise, and this was a continuing problem through the first century and beyond.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-07-2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

There's more to it than that, Elsp. Living offspring were the Social Security of the era. Enough nephews would be almost as good for keeping you in your old age as a few sons. The widow with no adult sons was in a world of hurt, shekel-wise, and this was a continuing problem through the first century and beyond.

Evidently it continues in the 21st century

Cyclefrance · 12-29-2005, 12:56 AM

NOt sure if this was posted anywhere, but it is Ben Stein's piece (I am told) from CBS 'Sunday Morning' on Christmas Day

++

Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart:

I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is, either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife.

Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. Is this what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad.

Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crèche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

++

12-25-2005, 12:37 AM	#1
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Rich, do you have any insight into this issue ... Was there any gift-giving associated with Chanukah before, say, about the 1940s (just guessing at time of culture change)? What do presents have to do with the bottle of oil lasting 8 days, anyway? Do modern Hasids exchange gifts during Chanukah, or do they just do the prayers over the candles? __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

12-26-2005, 05:11 AM	#5
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I understand the greater prevalence of gift-giving on Hanukkah to have been the influence of the Christian Christ Mass and the traditions that have grown up around it -- the Yule log and the Christmas tree are sort of competing traditions -- in a sort of cultural cross-pollination. A once rather minor holiday is becoming a bigger, grander affair. Evolution in progress, please design intelligently if at all. My Jewish mother-in-law, rest her soul, did me the favor of teaching me correct pronunciation of the holiday even when it got spelled Chanukah. We never did get around to discussing a heroine, a tent peg, and that general, though. The mallet wouldn't have gotten the job done, or was she determined to nail the guy to the spot? At first I thought that was the Judith story... oh well. Something else to put on the reading list. Other holidays are getting a cross-pollination, too. American-style Halloween celebrations with costuming and hijinks are becoming more and more popular in Mexican Day of the Dead, and of course Day of the Dead stuff is all over southern California anyway. All parties concerned are amused. The Halloween influence is being taken south by Mexicans returning after a stay up north, and by families with relatives on both sides of the border, which is a very frequent occurrence. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 12-26-2005 at 05:36 AM.

12-26-2005, 10:08 PM	#7
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	You're just upset because Christians have the secret to Life Eternal and The Truth, and they're right and you're not, aren't you? BTW, too bad you aren't a Jew, because you could have sued the shit out of the c-store chain for religious persecution. I mean, you would have felt threatened and demeaned, and you'd have had your civil rights trampled and all, because of all the stuff the cashier was saying. Oh, wait...I'm sorry...its everyone else who is persecuting the Christians these days, right? I've got to get straight with The Truth. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog Last edited by Elspode; 12-26-2005 at 10:10 PM.

12-27-2005, 08:58 AM	#9
fargon Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 8,924	JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!! God said it I belive it, and that settles it... __________________ Annoy the ones that ignore you!!! I live a blessed life I Love my Country, I Fear the Government!!! Heavily medicated for the good of mankind.

12-27-2005, 08:44 PM	#11
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I especially like that thing about, if your wife is infertile, you get to do her sister so you can have sons. Gotta love a good patriarchal sort of ethos... __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

12-25-2005, 07:20 AM	#4
Cain Sentimental Sentient Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cainada Posts: 38	Haha Experience a satisfactory non-denominational winter gift festival citizen And remember to lighten up a bit, It's Christmas for fuck sakes!

12-26-2005, 05:36 PM	#6
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Here is a little CHRISTMAS story from the center of Christian Fundie Whackos aka Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family and that Dobson idiot. Yesterday (CHRISTMAS Day) I had occasion to go to a convenience store to buy some half and half. The clerk there was ranting to any customer that would listen how she had placed a sign saying Merry CHRISTMAS on the door, despite the fact that the Jews didn't want her to do this. She went on and on about the Jews and loudly proclaimed that she'd be damned if she said "Happy Chanuka" to ANYONE! I stared at her in astonishment, paid for my half and half, and loudly said "PEACE ON EARTH!" to her and everyone else in the store as I went out the door. We've come a long way. NOT!

12-26-2005, 11:45 PM	#8
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Tell you what, Patrick. If I were Jewish instead of Buddhist/Native American/Pagan, I doubt if the "Merry Christmas" sign would have bothered me any more than it did when I walked in the door - which was NOT at all. However, by time I walked out of the store, I wanted to tear that "Merry Christmas" sign down, rip it to shreds and set fire to the fragments. I can't imagine how I would have felt if I had been Jewish, but you're right, the only ones who are persecuted these days are the fundies. Umm hmm.

12-28-2005, 10:38 PM	#12
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	In Boston, they busted an Asian Supermarket for being open on Christmas. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-29-2005, 12:56 AM	#15
Cyclefrance Pump my ride! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England Posts: 1,890	NOt sure if this was posted anywhere, but it is Ben Stein's piece (I am told) from CBS 'Sunday Morning' on Christmas Day ++ Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is, either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife. Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. Is this what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad. Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crèche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to. ++ __________________ Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears

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