Vaccination & epidemic

[sexobon]

Don't forget to get yourself the shingles vaccine, you know, just in case you have to do any roofing.

[lumberjim]

Yes. ... that and a helmet. Because. ....

[Aliantha]

Jim, i havent done the study myself, but am willing to agree that the risk to your kids not being vaccinated is less than if they were. Especially given the info you had at the time.

My question, and i assume many others here also, is, do you recognise that the risk was/is so low, thanks to the fact that many of these diseases have been severely retarded thanks to high rates of imminisation by others.

If i can speak frankly, i know thats why i get emotional about this subject. I take on the minute risk involved in imminisation so that families like yours can afford the luxury of not doing it.

This is in no way an attack on you. I just wondered if you have ever realised the reason why people like me sometimes get upset by people with similar views to yours. Just wondering if you've ever thought to be grateful for those people who have tqken the risk so that you cqn feel fairly safe not doing so.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Jim, i havent done the study myself, but am willing to agree that the risk to your kids not being vaccinated is less than if they were. Especially given the info you had at the time.

My question, and i assume many others here also, is, do you recognise that the risk was/is so low, thanks to the fact that many of these diseases have been severely retarded thanks to high rates of imminisation by others.

If i can speak frankly, i know thats why i get emotional about this subject. I take on the minute risk involved in imminisation so that families like yours can afford the luxury of not doing it.

This is in no way an attack on you. I just wondered if you have ever realised the reason why people like me sometimes get upset by people with similar views to yours. Just wondering if you've ever thought to be grateful for those people who have tqken the risk so that you cqn feel fairly safe not doing so.

yes, of course I do. It's awesome to live in America in the late 20th, early 21st Century. I take a WHOLE lot of shit for granted that was a real pain in the ass for people in this country as few as 50 years ago. We all do. I have to make my decisions in the current climate though. I can't justify unnecessary risk out of a sense of gratitude to those gone before. I am vaccinated, by the way.

so, thanks!

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

There is no actual number since many other factors apply - including all vaccine effectiveness. However numbers start in the hundreds. May be higher.

Lamplighter found a number, with a cite. It was 2. Do you have a better source than he does?

Effectiveness is irrelevant in this case, since you weren't talking about infection rates, you were talking about death rates. When a baby dies of measles, or whooping cough, there are no other factors--that's what they died from. You said that Jenny McCarthy was responsible for "so many dead infants." I ask again: do you have numbers to back up this claim, or was your hyperbole merely an emotional response that you now regret?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Lamplighter found a number, with a cite. It was 2. Do you have a better source than he does?

Effectiveness is irrelevant in this case, since you weren't talking about infection rates, you were talking about death rates. When a baby dies of measles, or whooping cough, there are no other factors--that's what they died from. You said that Jenny McCarthy was responsible for "so many dead infants." I ask again: do you have numbers to back up this claim, or was your hyperbole merely an emotional response that you now regret?

In the interest of full disclosure, the 2 cases I cited were (only) of measles in the UK among 1300 cases in 10 years .

By adding whooping cough (pertussis) to the taunt, the numbers change...

Here is the incidence in the US by year... note the upsurge in the McCarthey era.
(The incidence of measles follows a similar profile, but at a lower rate.)



If death is the insisted criterion, then the data for only one year (2012) includes 18 deaths:

[xoxoxoBruce]

But aside from such silliness as my impulse, my next one was to question why advance a "fake it or twist it" condemnation from that link.
It's not really a significant part of the article. The article talks about several other factors and influences that come to bear on "replication".

Because I've read 4 different articles on the subject this week, but didn't bother to track them all down.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

... If death is the insisted criterion, then the data for only one year (2012) includes 18 deaths:

Childhood Pertussis vaccination doesn't begin until 2 months of age; so, you can eliminate the <3 mos. category (13 deaths) as having been influenced by anyone's anti-childhood vaccination rhetoric. The information you provided here doesn't say whether or not they where vaccinated either, as vaccinations is not 100% effective. You can also eliminate the adult category (55+ years, 1 death) as childhood vaccination and first booster does not confer lifetime immunity; rather, lasting only 3-6 years. The potential influence a Jenny McCarthy type may have had in 2012 is 4 deaths (you didn't specify them as non-immunized versus failed immunization either), not 18 deaths as the tw-lamplighter school of spin doctoring would propagandize.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Childhood Pertussis vaccination doesn't begin until 2 months of age; so, you can eliminate the <3 mos. category (13 deaths) as having been influenced by anyone's anti-childhood vaccination rhetoric. The information you provided here doesn't say whether or not they where vaccinated either, as vaccinations is not 100% effective. ...

Described are more examples of why medicine recommends all kids be vaccinated. Even infants who cannot yet be vaccinated are at significantly greater risk due to others who deny their responsibility to society. That 'screw everyone else' attitude exists.

Vaccinations for decades were effective when many followed proven science. Or learned it. Which meant the few that were not protected by vaccinations (ie infants that were too young, children that a vaccine will not work) also remained protected.

Once people started listening to a stripper as an expert (or similar scam artists), then death rates took an uptick. That is a fact. Exacerbated antiscience attitudes manipulated by increasingly subjective media outlets are where the naive get the bulk of their science-related information. No problem if they learn from their mistakes. But a poster child shows that "Emotion is the first indication he has already lost the argument."

. No responsible adult could condone his mistake. But then some are so self righteous to believe in ensuring their own prosperity even at increased risk to others. Their motivation justifies it. Screw everyone else.

[Lamplighter]

... not 18 deaths as the tw-lamplighter school of spin doctoring would propagandize.

"spin doctoring" and "propagandize" here are the sorts of emotional
word-usage that TW has been talking about all along.
If Sexobon could make his polemics convincingly, he would not need them.

I have previously disagreed with the use of death as the end point of assessing risk.
but have my limited recent postings to death-related data from reasonably reputable sources.

A significant portion of the discussion in this thread has included herd immunity.
Unless Sexobon subscribes to the school of "pathogen autogenesis",
he has yet to suggest an explanation for the increase in incidence
of vaccine-preventable diseases, with their associated death rates
or aftereffects in the Wakefield/McCatrhy era.

The popular press (Time (2011)) reported a Univ Michigan study
that ~25% of the people trusted her erroneous attributions.

But now, which parents today should blame the messenger...

[sexobon]

Now Clod, no need to be insulting, the art of intertwining spin doctored information with verifiable facts to make it all seen credible doesn't constitute an emotional response: it's just good old, cold, calculated, completely logical propaganda technique.

[lumberjim]

He sits on a throne of lies

[wolf]

We were given a choice this year at the rehab. Get the flu shot or get fired. I made the infection control nurse use my own Hello Kitty bandaid.

[Undertoad]

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by wolf

We were given a choice this year at the rehab. Get the flu shot or get fired. I made the infection control nurse use my own Hello Kitty bandaid.

Just say: Use my Hello Kitty Band-Aid or this gets fired ...