Who doesn't want a Palestinian state? Palestinian leaders, that's who - Page 7

jaguar · 06-25-2002, 07:55 AM

I appologise in advance but in the interest of living up to my quip:

yes, these were blantantly ripped of fark, but they made me laugh so hard, they had to be posted
thankyou

*ducks*

Undertoad · 06-25-2002, 08:25 AM

Up until 9/11, in my life, I had specifically decided that I wouldn't pay any attention to the middle east. This is a typical American perspective: foreign relations is hard and we feel it doesn't affect us. I figured the religious aspects made the whole thing despicable; I'm pretty non-religious. I figured I would never understand it, and you can't follow everything, so I took the easy way out.

After 9/11 I realized that skipping this particular topic was a huge mistake. I set out to try to understand it.

I was also driven by tw and adamzion, whose allegiance followed his name. Adam left the Cellar in a fit of pique after a solid month of arguing with tw. Their discussions helped me to realize that I had no perspective on it all, and that I really should.

BTW, for those who were around then, I had no respect for Adam for leaving like he did. If you don't agree with one other person it really is not a big deal. On the other hand Adam was often quite silly and very obviously biased. At the time I tended to side with tw.

My bias is set up by my sources, which are web logs and CNN. The web logs I read tend to lean neo-conservative and pro-Israel while CNN leans pro-Palestinian. My background thinking is small-l libertarian: pro-freedom, pro-civil rights, pro-human rights, anti-authoritarian.

I admit to huge gaps in my knowledge and understanding. When I make an obvious error, I urge anyone to bonk me over the head with more information.

Yelof · 06-25-2002, 08:45 AM

undertoad?

How come I can't find the archived discussions between tw and adamzion?
Was it was before The Cellar ran on VBBulletin code and is thus unsearchable?

06-25-2002, 08:54 AM

Yelof -

No, you can find them if you look hard enough. Probably the easiest way is to go to Adam's user page, which is here:

http://www.cellar.org/member.php?s=&...tinfo&userid=3

And then click the "Search for all posts by this user" link. Read the discussions that he was involved in.

They're mostly about a year old and were pretty intense discussions. We've also been continually beating this dead horse of a topic ever since. I can dig up links to the big threads if you like.

I too was pretty disappointed that Adam left, but I guess these things happen. I've certainly considered dropping the Cellar from time to time, but not seriously since the beginning of the year. It's too much a rewarding experience for me to give it up. I guess some others don't view it that way.

Nic Name · 06-25-2002, 08:55 AM

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&...5&pagenumber=2

Yelof · 06-25-2002, 09:30 AM

That is quite scary seeing the vintage of il/ps topic here at The Cellar.

I care about the topic but I wouldn't want to still be here in a years time going in circles.

So I wonder what makes the topic continue? Is it fresh blood like myself, or is the same old warriors?

06-25-2002, 09:42 AM

Some of it's fresh blood, some of it is that the oldies can't leave it alone... some of it is that there's always something inflammatory going on there and it's difficult to leave it unanswered.

Another big part is that it produces a pretty fair number of good or thought-provoking images, and those tend to find their way to IotD.

You know, it can be tiring at times, but the conflict has, at the very least, helped myself and a few others become better writers and flesh out our opinions of the situation. Whereas tw and adamzion were mostly just involved in a lame fight (due mainly to, as Tony said before, Adam's obvious bias, coupled with tw's ability to tweak just about anyone's nerves), we've gotten some really good discussion going here on it. You have the occasional ad hominem attack or lame personal comment (jaguar posted one earlier against me), but other than that, it's fairly civil and intelligent discussion.

Undertoad · 06-25-2002, 09:47 AM

Events happen which seem to crystallize different notions.

I don't think it's necessarily circles on this one. Now, if we discussed abortion, THAT would be circles... nobody changes their mind on that or so it seems. But I've seen people change their minds based on what these discussions have said, and I know that I personally have been swayed too, in both directions.

Even sometimes when they come from bias, too. It's like... often I don't agree with someone's personal politics, but they come up with interesting points which make me think.

Griff · 06-25-2002, 11:05 AM

I think this argument is an important one to have, like Syc mentioned there is a disconnect in the way the situation is viewed in the US vs Europe. I'm not sure how much of the Euro-view is just anti-american feelings taking a different channel. I would say that our governments blind support of Israel is problematic if we really want to help the situation. I started with the belief that the Palestinians were the aggreived party, having been evicted from their homes (not nation). Its easy however to pick any point in time and say if this group didn't do this everything would be cool. The bottom line is both sides need to move beyond grievences and neither side has a statesman in place capable of that.

I also echo the exhaustion feeling, so I leave it alone for awhile, then get sucked back in. The deal with the cellar is people are willing to say what they really mean, whether egos get bruised or not, people get pissed, grumble for a while, leave the subject alone, and eventually get over it, seeing in the emotional response the root of the conflict and maybe coming back to it a little wiser. The other stuff like the entertainment and cities section give people a glimpse of a real person separate from naked opinions and politics, keeping the community human.

06-25-2002, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
The other stuff like the entertainment and cities section give people a glimpse of a real person separate from naked opinions and politics, keeping the community human.

In other words, dhamsaic can still think Griff is mega cool 'cause of his house project even though he doesn't agree with his views on the Middle East.

elSicomoro · 06-25-2002, 11:34 AM

Yeah, I remember that first one...Adam seemed to disappear completely. Every now and then I'll see him post to phl.transportation, but not as often as he used to.

It's amazing how often people come and go, including here at the Cellar.

I think part of the reason that we continually talk about the conflict is because the situation is always changing. Abortion changes every so often, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict changes almost minute to minute...though the heart of the matter is still the same.

spinningfetus · 06-25-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic

Can you break up your posts into paragraphs or something?

Whaddya say to cutting us dorks here on the Cellar a bit of a break and using the Enter key a little more frequently?

Done.

My bad, unfortuately thats the way that I write everything, I just haven't been bothering to go back and break it up.

The thing about this whole discussion, is its one that I have been having on a nearly daily basis since 9/11. And the thing is no one really cared prior to that, and that is part of why other's shock at what happened is often met by my cynicism. Americans have this thing about the protection of the oceans. The first (or second) world war should have been enough to show us that the world is something we have to participate in actively or else we are going to keep getting caught with our pants down.

I'm not saying paying attentition can stop things but you can at least be prepared. The warning signs were there, two days before the attacks on us, the main military leader of the northern alliance was assassinated. That was big, but only got a 20 mention on CNN. But this is somewhat beside the point.

Israel and Palestine or India and Pakistan have the potental to polarize the world in a way that hasn't been seen since the world wars. And people are already shooting mad, if we don't figure out a solution or at least a diffusion then there is going to be blood in the streets and I don't think just in someone else's neighborhood.

jaguar · 06-26-2002, 04:20 AM

Dham the only reason I said that is you posted the most simplistic conclusion you could from a series of facts with questionable sources.

The reason it isn't flogging is a dead horse is as syc correctly said it continually evolves. It’s going to get worse before it gets better. Bush's speech while Sharon had his hand up his ass controlling his mouth ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h policy is only going to inflame matters, before there will be any real progress both leaders need to step aside, but that’s not going to happen either. Israelis new range of measures are simply going to inflame things further, the assassinations will create a groundswell inside organisations like hamas, the occupations will drive more suicide bombers to the doors of hamas and Islamic jihad the wall is simply inflammatory. None will solve the problem. The PLO is unable to change while under siege, inertia alone will stop this without the fact they can't even meet thanks to Israeli tanks. If the PLF gains significance you're going to see the possibility of Hezbollah getting into it seriously and that’s just going to be bloodbath all round.

Interesting, word dictionary recognises Hezbollah but not Hamas.

Spinningfetus, i think you're fear of blood on all streets is already coming true in europe where poor marginalised arab communities are thought to be responsible for many firebombs and other anti-semitic attacks in response to Isreali actions. India/Pakistan i don't think really carries the same risk, and is one again quieting down a bit, India has thought better than to corner a nuclear-armed nation. Britan proved at the turn of the centuary that policies of 'Splendid Isolation' , i'm glad the US has finally caught on.

Griff · 06-26-2002, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Britan proved at the turn of the centuary that policies of 'Splendid Isolation' , i'm glad the US has finally caught on.

I'm gonna guess that by this you mean America needs to avoid isolationism. Britains isolationism included the baggage of an unraveling colonial empire, thats not isolationism, at least of the kind promoted by Americas old right. Unfortunately, Jag you don't really understand American domestic politics. When Americans are engaged overseas it means militarism and mercantilism. Be careful what you wish for, you'll be protesting our engagement policies next time you catch Rage Against the Machine. Bush is preaching calm to India/Pakistan and Israel/Palestine while pushing for an Iraqi invasion. If America is engaged it will be about America not about some vague global equity.

Undertoad · 06-26-2002, 08:50 AM

USS Clueless's theory is that the whole Bush speech was basically saying that the US isn't going to pay much attention to the Palestinians. The US is going to leave the whole thing to Israel so that it can engage Iraq and "encourage" regime changes in Syria, Iran and Saudi.

If that happens, he says, the Palestinians won't have the support of those countries, in the form of arms, bombs, money, and rewards for the families of suiciders. At that point they will begin realistic negotiations.

But USS Clueless is an optimistic hawk who makes it all seem too simple.

06-25-2002, 07:55 AM	#91
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I appologise in advance but in the interest of living up to my quip: yes, these were blantantly ripped of fark, but they made me laugh so hard, they had to be posted thankyou ducks __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

06-25-2002, 11:05 AM	#99
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I think this argument is an important one to have, like Syc mentioned there is a disconnect in the way the situation is viewed in the US vs Europe. I'm not sure how much of the Euro-view is just anti-american feelings taking a different channel. I would say that our governments blind support of Israel is problematic if we really want to help the situation. I started with the belief that the Palestinians were the aggreived party, having been evicted from their homes (not nation). Its easy however to pick any point in time and say if this group didn't do this everything would be cool. The bottom line is both sides need to move beyond grievences and neither side has a statesman in place capable of that. I also echo the exhaustion feeling, so I leave it alone for awhile, then get sucked back in. The deal with the cellar is people are willing to say what they really mean, whether egos get bruised or not, people get pissed, grumble for a while, leave the subject alone, and eventually get over it, seeing in the emotional response the root of the conflict and maybe coming back to it a little wiser. The other stuff like the entertainment and cities section give people a glimpse of a real person separate from naked opinions and politics, keeping the community human. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-26-2002, 04:20 AM	#103
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Dham the only reason I said that is you posted the most simplistic conclusion you could from a series of facts with questionable sources. The reason it isn't flogging is a dead horse is as syc correctly said it continually evolves. It’s going to get worse before it gets better. Bush's speech while Sharon had his hand up his ass controlling his mouth ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h policy is only going to inflame matters, before there will be any real progress both leaders need to step aside, but that’s not going to happen either. Israelis new range of measures are simply going to inflame things further, the assassinations will create a groundswell inside organisations like hamas, the occupations will drive more suicide bombers to the doors of hamas and Islamic jihad the wall is simply inflammatory. None will solve the problem. The PLO is unable to change while under siege, inertia alone will stop this without the fact they can't even meet thanks to Israeli tanks. If the PLF gains significance you're going to see the possibility of Hezbollah getting into it seriously and that’s just going to be bloodbath all round. Interesting, word dictionary recognises Hezbollah but not Hamas. Spinningfetus, i think you're fear of blood on all streets is already coming true in europe where poor marginalised arab communities are thought to be responsible for many firebombs and other anti-semitic attacks in response to Isreali actions. India/Pakistan i don't think really carries the same risk, and is one again quieting down a bit, India has thought better than to corner a nuclear-armed nation. Britan proved at the turn of the centuary that policies of 'Splendid Isolation' , i'm glad the US has finally caught on. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 06-26-2002 at 04:23 AM.

06-25-2002, 08:25 AM	#92
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Up until 9/11, in my life, I had specifically decided that I wouldn't pay any attention to the middle east. This is a typical American perspective: foreign relations is hard and we feel it doesn't affect us. I figured the religious aspects made the whole thing despicable; I'm pretty non-religious. I figured I would never understand it, and you can't follow everything, so I took the easy way out. After 9/11 I realized that skipping this particular topic was a huge mistake. I set out to try to understand it. I was also driven by tw and adamzion, whose allegiance followed his name. Adam left the Cellar in a fit of pique after a solid month of arguing with tw. Their discussions helped me to realize that I had no perspective on it all, and that I really should. BTW, for those who were around then, I had no respect for Adam for leaving like he did. If you don't agree with one other person it really is not a big deal. On the other hand Adam was often quite silly and very obviously biased. At the time I tended to side with tw. My bias is set up by my sources, which are web logs and CNN. The web logs I read tend to lean neo-conservative and pro-Israel while CNN leans pro-Palestinian. My background thinking is small-l libertarian: pro-freedom, pro-civil rights, pro-human rights, anti-authoritarian. I admit to huge gaps in my knowledge and understanding. When I make an obvious error, I urge anyone to bonk me over the head with more information.

06-25-2002, 08:45 AM	#93
Yelof neither here nor there Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 179	undertoad? How come I can't find the archived discussions between tw and adamzion? Was it was before The Cellar ran on VBBulletin code and is thus unsearchable?

06-25-2002, 08:54 AM	#94
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Yelof - No, you can find them if you look hard enough. Probably the easiest way is to go to Adam's user page, which is here: http://www.cellar.org/member.php?s=&...tinfo&userid=3 And then click the "Search for all posts by this user" link. Read the discussions that he was involved in. They're mostly about a year old and were pretty intense discussions. We've also been continually beating this dead horse of a topic ever since. I can dig up links to the big threads if you like. I too was pretty disappointed that Adam left, but I guess these things happen. I've certainly considered dropping the Cellar from time to time, but not seriously since the beginning of the year. It's too much a rewarding experience for me to give it up. I guess some others don't view it that way.

06-25-2002, 08:55 AM	#95
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&...5&pagenumber=2

06-25-2002, 09:30 AM	#96
Yelof neither here nor there Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 179	That is quite scary seeing the vintage of il/ps topic here at The Cellar. I care about the topic but I wouldn't want to still be here in a years time going in circles. So I wonder what makes the topic continue? Is it fresh blood like myself, or is the same old warriors?

06-25-2002, 09:42 AM	#97
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Some of it's fresh blood, some of it is that the oldies can't leave it alone... some of it is that there's always something inflammatory going on there and it's difficult to leave it unanswered. Another big part is that it produces a pretty fair number of good or thought-provoking images, and those tend to find their way to IotD. You know, it can be tiring at times, but the conflict has, at the very least, helped myself and a few others become better writers and flesh out our opinions of the situation. Whereas tw and adamzion were mostly just involved in a lame fight (due mainly to, as Tony said before, Adam's obvious bias, coupled with tw's ability to tweak just about anyone's nerves), we've gotten some really good discussion going here on it. You have the occasional ad hominem attack or lame personal comment (jaguar posted one earlier against me), but other than that, it's fairly civil and intelligent discussion.

06-25-2002, 09:47 AM	#98
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Events happen which seem to crystallize different notions. I don't think it's necessarily circles on this one. Now, if we discussed abortion, THAT would be circles... nobody changes their mind on that or so it seems. But I've seen people change their minds based on what these discussions have said, and I know that I personally have been swayed too, in both directions. Even sometimes when they come from bias, too. It's like... often I don't agree with someone's personal politics, but they come up with interesting points which make me think.

06-25-2002, 11:34 AM	#101
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Yeah, I remember that first one...Adam seemed to disappear completely. Every now and then I'll see him post to phl.transportation, but not as often as he used to. It's amazing how often people come and go, including here at the Cellar. I think part of the reason that we continually talk about the conflict is because the situation is always changing. Abortion changes every so often, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict changes almost minute to minute...though the heart of the matter is still the same.

06-26-2002, 08:50 AM	#105
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	USS Clueless's theory is that the whole Bush speech was basically saying that the US isn't going to pay much attention to the Palestinians. The US is going to leave the whole thing to Israel so that it can engage Iraq and "encourage" regime changes in Syria, Iran and Saudi. If that happens, he says, the Palestinians won't have the support of those countries, in the form of arms, bombs, money, and rewards for the families of suiciders. At that point they will begin realistic negotiations. But USS Clueless is an optimistic hawk who makes it all seem too simple.

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