The New "Tolerance"

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Buddug

Strictly speaking you cannot call yourself a Christian just because you follow the teachings of Christ .

I'm glad to hear that, because I can't seem to find anybody that calls themselves a Christian and actually does follow the teachings of Christ. Most Christians appear to be violently opposed to the message of Jesus.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Buddug

Strictly speaking you cannot call yourself a Christian just because you follow the teachings of Christ . To be a Christian you have to accept the idea of the Virgin Birth , and you have to accept the idea that Jesus died and rose again.

Really? Care to name off all the other parts of the bible that you have to take literally in order to call yourself a Christian? Where's that blurry line?

[Stormieweather]

There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân):

Most liberal Christian denominations, secularists, public opinion pollsters, and this web site [see link below] define "Christian" very broadly as any person or group who sincerely believes themselves to be Christian.

Thus, Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believers, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, United Church members, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc. are all considered Christian. They total about 75% of the North American adult population.

However, many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants define "Christian" more narrowly to include only those persons with beliefs like their own. Or they might accept as a "Christian" anyone who has been "born again" regardless of their denomination. They might estimate that about 35% of the North American adult population are real Christians.

Other denominations regard their own members to be the only Christians in the world. Some are quite small, numbering only a few thousand followers.

Different definitions on such a fundamental topic makes dialog and debate among Christian groups very difficult. It also makes estimating the number of Christians in the U.S. quite impossible. By some definitions, 75% of Americans are Christians; by other definitions, it is a small fraction of 1%.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm

[xoxoxoBruce]

1%?
The only real Christians are outlaw bikers?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Care to name off all the other parts of the bible that you have to take literally in order to call yourself a Christian? Where's that blurry line?

Kitsune, being mean ill becomes you. Rein back, if you please.

And for a Readers' Digest listing of the beliefs that make a Christian, have a read of the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, and the Creed of St. Athanasius. The first two are pretty easy to follow, but expect Athanasius to be mystical and esoteric. These set forth the, or a, baseline.

There are faiths I would call Christian that do not profess a Creed as an article of faith or a piece of liturgy, but it seems to me they do not disdain the Creed, either -- the Unitarian Universalists being a case in point.

[Elspode]

I like the UU's. They're sort of the Pot Luck of religions. Bring watcha' got, and we'll all share some of it. Works for me.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Kitsune, being mean ill becomes you. Rein back, if you please.

I'm simply trying to point out that even Christians can't come to an agreement on what it means to "be christian". Some require passages in the bible to be taken literally and followed to the letter, others... not so. I'll accept that it is mostly due to the church(es) rather than the nature of the religion, itself.

"I give you these fifteen-- *CRASH* ...ten, ten commandments!"

[xoxoxoBruce]

How do you think the muslims feel these days. They're being lumped like Christians.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

And for a Readers' Digest listing of the beliefs that make a Christian, have a read of the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, and the Creed of St. Athanasius. The first two are pretty easy to follow, but expect Athanasius to be mystical and esoteric. These set forth the, or a, baseline.

Nope, that does not "make a Christian". That makes a 5th Century Roman Catholic.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

Nope, that does not "make a Christian". That makes a 5th Century Roman Catholic.

That would come as a complete surprise to about two million 21st-century US Episcopalians, Tonch. Read over all three Creeds and see how much of each you agree with, either as a nondenominational moral being or as a professed Christian, whichever or whatever you may be.

Note, too, that I never said the Creeds were the be-all and end-all of the Christian faiths. I said they were a base-line. They aren't Scripture; that, shall we say, has a very considerable influence in all this. They are a convenient paraphrasing of the barest essentials -- and as conveniences, mighty handy to Christians.

Originally Posted by Buddug

Strictly speaking you cannot call yourself a Christian just because you follow the teachings of Christ . To be a Christian you have to accept the idea of the Virgin Birth , and you have to accept the idea that Jesus died and rose again . This is the core of Christianity , and if you don't believe that then you are not a Christian .

Cite, specifically, where in the Bible it says, exactly, that, please. Or is this made-up like the rapture?

After study for some time I have learned this. The Book and Christ rarely are rarely repeditive... so this must be VERY important.


Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

Amendment 1 (1st for a reason)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

[BigV]

I, for one, would like to know which post sparked your epiphany. A PM would suffice. Pretty please?

xoB, I would add "Love the Lord with all your might" to your short list. Loving my neighbor as I love myself is easier to appreciate, in that I know myself and I know my neighbors in a way that I can't know the Lord. Both "commandments" are central to Christianity.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by BigV

I, for one, would like to know which post sparked your epiphany. A PM would suffice. Pretty please?

I'll see if I can find it when I get a chance

xoB, I would add "Love the Lord with all your might" to your short list. Loving my neighbor as I love myself is easier to appreciate, in that I know myself and I know my neighbors in a way that I can't know the Lord. Both "commandments" are central to Christianity.

I disagree, there are no "commandments" and just one rule, to be a Christian. Everything else is religion.

[wolf]

Episcopalians apparently aren't christian anymore. They voted at their convention to reject a resolution declaring that you can only be saved in the name of Jesus Christ.

Remember that schism that they barely avoided with Robinson's election to Bishop? Here it comes ...

One person cannot tell another that they are or are not a Christian... the hubris is sickening.