Difficult Civil Rights Question - Page 7

08-30-2006, 02:01 AM

The thing with me is that I don't believe in evil.
I don't see racists/fascists/anti-Semites as evil. Just flawed, misguided, humans in need of compassion.
I have, personally, seen that is the way to show them the different path, more than once.

MaggieL · 08-30-2006, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Your argument is that it's wrong for me to think that people who act or could act in a discriminatory manner should not be eligible for public positions of authority.

You're working really hard here to erase the line between thought and action, and it's not working.

If you want to punish cops who "could act in a discriminatory manner" instead of just those who "do act in a discriminatory manner"...you're advocating punishment before a crime has been comitted.

I can think of whole bunches of people who *could* commit a crime. Shall we lock them all up, just to make sure it doesn't happen?

Aliantha · 08-30-2006, 06:14 AM

MaggieL...I'm not working hard to do anything here except express my point of view on an issue which is highly controversial to begin with. When it all comes down to it, how does any person define racist behaviour anyway? Everyone has different places to draw the line on different issues. In this particular one, I took the risk of sharing my personal viewpoint and even shared the reasons for doing so with you and the other members of this site. If you want to continue on this path then go ahead. I'm not going to proceed any further with you. If you need the last word, go ahead and have it.

Ultimately, no matter what you say to me, I'll have no time for racism because I've seen my children suffer at the hands of racist people. That is my reason and the only reason you'll get from me for my views. I don't care if you think my views are unreasonable. Ultimately what you or anyone else thinks has little or no bearing on my life or how I live it.

Pardon me for taking the risk of sharing something personal with you and the other members here about what I really think without trying to promote my higher intellect.

MaggieL · 08-30-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

When it all comes down to it, how does any person define racist behaviour anyway?

This is why we have laws that define "discrimination"....so it's not up to the whims of "any person". I'm no more interested in "promoting racism", than I am in "promoting homophobia". But trying to create laws to punish people for their thoughts or beliefs isn't a smart way fight either racism or homophobia. And it opens the door to an incredible range of abuses that won't be good for anybody.

DanaC · 08-30-2006, 04:35 PM

As far as being a member of an organisation which openly espouses racist views.....that I think is incompatible with being a policeman. That said, I do find myself agreeing with some of what Maggie is saying here. There is a danger in legislating against certain ways of thinking.

In the UK we have a law against incitement to racial hatred. Calling someone a 'paki' is not illegal. Standing up in a public meeting and saying Pakis are a cancer on society which should be cut out is.

Trilby · 08-31-2006, 06:31 AM

Dana, just for the sake of argument--it's illegal to stand up in a public meeting and say Paki's are a cancer on society but it IS legal to have a public demonstration in which beheadings are prescribed for the 'cancer' that is 'europe'-? Do I have that right?

DanaC · 08-31-2006, 08:59 AM

Yup. If they'd referred to a specific race it would be different.

08-31-2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

As far as being a member of an organisation which openly espouses racist views.....that I think is incompatible with being a policeman. That said, I do find myself agreeing with some of what Maggie is saying here. There is a danger in legislating against certain ways of thinking.

In the UK we have a law against incitement to racial hatred. Calling someone a 'paki' is not illegal. Standing up in a public meeting and saying Pakis are a cancer on society which should be cut out is.

But you can say that racists are a cancer on society, right?

DanaC · 08-31-2006, 10:19 AM

yep. People choose to be racist or not. People have no choice as to their ethnicity.

08-31-2006, 11:19 AM

Not the point... the point is that you feel it is ok to single-out and ostracize one type of person publicly and not another. That makes you the same as them.
That kind of law makes the people exactly what they are trying to avoid. They become what they are trying to fight.
It is impossible to legislate morality.

Part of freedom of speech is hearing unpleasant speech.

MaggieL · 08-31-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Yup. If they'd referred to a specific race it would be different.

When did "Pakistani" become a race?

wolf · 08-31-2006, 07:32 PM

Since "ethnism" isn't as easy to pronouce as "racism."

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-31-2006, 11:01 PM

Republican Party? You wish, Spexx. And wishes like that you don't get. Which prospect makes me feel like

ing.

Aliantha · 09-01-2006, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieL

This is why we have laws that define "discrimination"....so it's not up to the whims of "any person". I'm no more interested in "promoting racism", than I am in "promoting homophobia". But trying to create laws to punish people for their thoughts or beliefs isn't a smart way fight either racism or homophobia. And it opens the door to an incredible range of abuses that won't be good for anybody.

OK...for one thing, unless the process of becomming a police officer is much different in the US than it is here, there's a huge number of people involved in employing each new recruit, so it would certainly be far from the 'whims of any person' to exclude or include any one person during the process.

One further comment. I don't know what you really feel about this situation because you've not shared with us why you think the way you do, but even if your view is 'constitutional', I would never agree that it's ok for a police officer to be an active officer and be a member of a hate group at the same time. It takes something very special to be a cop, and someone who can believe that it's ok to feel superior to another whole race doesn't have that special thing that you need to have to be a cop.

To add to that, the state has a responsibility to act in the best interests of all citizens. How can the state be acting in the best interests of all citizens if it allows some of its citizens to be put in a position where they are open to victimization?

MaggieL · 09-01-2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

OK...for one thing...
One further comment...To add to that...

So much for "the last word". :-)

View Poll Results: Should a police officer be fired for joining the Klan
Kick him out no matter what	17	65.38%
Reinstate him if he stays out of the Klan	2	7.69%
Reinstate him no matter what he does off duty	7	26.92%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

08-30-2006, 06:14 AM	#93
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	MaggieL...I'm not working hard to do anything here except express my point of view on an issue which is highly controversial to begin with. When it all comes down to it, how does any person define racist behaviour anyway? Everyone has different places to draw the line on different issues. In this particular one, I took the risk of sharing my personal viewpoint and even shared the reasons for doing so with you and the other members of this site. If you want to continue on this path then go ahead. I'm not going to proceed any further with you. If you need the last word, go ahead and have it. Ultimately, no matter what you say to me, I'll have no time for racism because I've seen my children suffer at the hands of racist people. That is my reason and the only reason you'll get from me for my views. I don't care if you think my views are unreasonable. Ultimately what you or anyone else thinks has little or no bearing on my life or how I live it. Pardon me for taking the risk of sharing something personal with you and the other members here about what I really think without trying to promote my higher intellect. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

08-31-2006, 06:31 AM	#96
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Dana, just for the sake of argument--it's illegal to stand up in a public meeting and say Paki's are a cancer on society but it IS legal to have a public demonstration in which beheadings are prescribed for the 'cancer' that is 'europe'-? Do I have that right? __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

08-31-2006, 07:32 PM	#102
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Since "ethnism" isn't as easy to pronouce as "racism." __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

08-31-2006, 11:01 PM	#103
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Republican Party? You wish, Spexx. And wishes like that you don't get. Which prospect makes me feel like ing. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-30-2006, 02:01 AM	#91
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	The thing with me is that I don't believe in evil. I don't see racists/fascists/anti-Semites as evil. Just flawed, misguided, humans in need of compassion. I have, personally, seen that is the way to show them the different path, more than once.

08-30-2006, 04:35 PM	#95
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	As far as being a member of an organisation which openly espouses racist views.....that I think is incompatible with being a policeman. That said, I do find myself agreeing with some of what Maggie is saying here. There is a danger in legislating against certain ways of thinking. In the UK we have a law against incitement to racial hatred. Calling someone a 'paki' is not illegal. Standing up in a public meeting and saying Pakis are a cancer on society which should be cut out is.

08-31-2006, 08:59 AM	#97
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Yup. If they'd referred to a specific race it would be different.

08-31-2006, 10:19 AM	#99
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	yep. People choose to be racist or not. People have no choice as to their ethnicity.

08-31-2006, 11:19 AM	#100
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Not the point... the point is that you feel it is ok to single-out and ostracize one type of person publicly and not another. That makes you the same as them. That kind of law makes the people exactly what they are trying to avoid. They become what they are trying to fight. It is impossible to legislate morality. Part of freedom of speech is hearing unpleasant speech.

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