Kyoto Treaty

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Even if you do not believe that this has to do with Global Warming, it is what is the right thing to do and is the first step in moving toward eliminating needless pollution and removing our dependence on foreign oil and eventually on oil and coal as a fuel source.

As surprised as you might be RR, I have been pushing that same line for years, and I agree with you 100%. If you missed my old posts on Global Warming, I am a scientist, and have worked on a project for years, that collects all sorts of climate data and other scientist's research, and I have argued for years that it does not matter if cleaning up our daily waste creation and energy usage actually has a measurable affect within our life-time, it is still worth doing. I would rather live on a cleaner planet, than a trashed one.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Phil

given that we're all experiencing weird weather

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13023&page=3

and other strange phenomena, isnt it about time America signed up to the treaty and big industries took action, to set an example to the public to do their part?

do you do your part?

No. Not until all parties, including so called "emerging economies" like China and India have to install and implement the same protections they expect of me. Those are two of the most polluted nasy smokey countries I have ever visited. When the Chinese and Indians insall multi-million dollar scrubbers on all their power plants and factories we may consider involvement, till then screw em.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

till then screw em.

Who is the "em" you are referring to there? Everybody?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Who is the "em" you are referring to there? Everybody?

Everybody else who thinks we should sign. It obviously can't be everybody in general. :p

[Phil]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

No. Not until all parties, including so called "emerging economies" like China and India have to install and implement the same protections they expect of me. Those are two of the most polluted nasy smokey countries I have ever visited. When the Chinese and Indians insall multi-million dollar scrubbers on all their power plants and factories we may consider involvement, till then screw em.

thats exactly the "we dont give a shit cuz we're allright" attitude that made me want ask the question in the first place, because while i agree about China and India, America is just as big a polluter and wastes more energy than countries who havent even got it to waste.

nobody so far has said whether they "do their part", by recycling paper, cardboard, glass, plastic etc.

i also agree that big polluting industries need to take the reins and set an example to the public, and even thought the treaty may seem to be a farce to some people, it has to be the first step to international concern and co-operation.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Phil

thats exactly the "we dont give a shit cuz we're allright" attitude that made me want ask the question in the first place, because while i agree about China and India, America is just as big a polluter and wastes more energy than countries who havent even got it to waste.

nobody so far has said whether they "do their part", by recycling paper, cardboard, glass, plastic etc.

i also agree that big polluting industries need to take the reins and set an example to the public, and even thought the treaty may seem to be a farce to some people, it has to be the first step to international concern and co-operation.

Bottom line is this. The developing economies like India and China would like nothing more than to see our country sign on to kyoto and sit back and watch as we further outsource and spend billions nation wide to meet the double standards they will never have to meet or spend money on to achieve ANY level of CO emissions that we will have to do. When the playing field is level I would agree to it. But I am not going to sit back and watch people point fingers at us as they expand and build thier economies on our back as we further spin down the toilet economically and as a nation. So yea, screw them.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Bottom line is this. The developing economies like India and China would like nothing more than to see our country sign on to kyoto and sit back and watch as we further outsource and spend billions nation wide to meet the double standards they will never have to meet or spend money on to achieve ANY level of CO emissions that we will have to do.

So you don't think we'll be here by the time emerging economies have emerged?

I wonder why that might be.

Yes I know that's not exactly what you said, but really, why would they never have to meet the same standards? People in emerging economies are not the enemy. They're just doing the same thing developed countries have been doing for centuries...and in most cases still are.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Bottom line is this. The developing economies like India and China would like nothing more than to see our country sign on to kyoto and sit back and watch as we further outsource and spend billions nation wide to meet the double standards they will never have to meet or spend money on to achieve ANY level of CO emissions that we will have to do.

Wow! You have not a clue. You never once bothered to learn from history. Those nations that innovated - that created solutions to previous environmental problems - then reaped massive profits both from less waste (more efficient industries) and from selling those innovations to all other nations. Amazing how TheMercenary so loves the status quo as to disparage innovation. Well, TheMercenary, innovation (not 'big dic' thinking) defined the patriotic American. You have just advocated communism - the stifling of innovation and maintaining status quo. Shame on you for posting without even learning from history. You have just advocated the destruction of the American economy. You actually hate innovation - or somehow know without first learning reality.

Well lets see how much knowledge your opinions are based in. Please tell us what the catalytic converter does. Since you so know India and China would love to see us innovate, then you learned from history – you can even tell us what a catalytic converter does. I await your demonstration of greater knowledge.

[Happy Monkey]

Unfortunately, it is.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Unfortunately, it is.

You think "everybody" thinks we should sign??? Obviously that is not true to we already would have...

[Happy Monkey]

No, everybody gets screwed.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, everybody gets screwed.

If "everybody" gets screwed it will not be because the US failed to sign the treaty. I promise you that. No matter how hard people want to believe that all the ills of the world are our fault.

[Griff]

Merc, you may appreciate this old thread.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

If "everybody" gets screwed it will not be because the US failed to sign the treaty. I promise you that. No matter how hard people want to believe that all the ills of the world are our fault.

But the stuff we do is the stuff we can do something about.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

But the stuff we do is the stuff we can do something about.

To what end and at what cost. Say over the next 50 years we make this the cleanest place in the world, cutting say 50% of emissions. And the world still continues to slide toward and on the same path as the developing nations would so like to see us go, down. As thier output increases and doubles or triples. What was gained? Our destruction? How about this, we cut off all overseas payments of monetary aid to all developing nations so we can pay to clean up our house. I would agree to that. Cut off the money we send to the UN as well.