Politics ad absurdam - Page 7

queequeger · 08-25-2007, 12:59 PM

So seeing Nazi propaganda will make me a nazi? If someone goosesteps past my front door in a hitler youth costume, does that change my opinions?

Well, if that's the case let's not allow Mein Kompf in libraries! Genius.

One of our oh-so-holy founding fathers here in the US (and along with Thomas Jefferson, or T-Jeff as I like to call him, one of my favorite political thinkers) by the name of Benjamin Franklin said "a society that is willing to trade a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither and will lose both."

The reason it's a bad idea to limit anyone's freedom of speech (such as contempt of court... bleh) is that we might not always be in charge. In the US in particular we seem to float back and forth between very left and very right. When the left is in power they see fit to eliminate hate speech. I hate hearing 'fag' and 'spick' just as much as the next guy, but what about in ten years? You lost all your privileges to say "I can say god is dead all I want, free speech!" Wrong-o moose breath. That’s hate speech against Christians!

Give no allowances for limiting of speech so long as you’re not threatening bodily harm directly, or inciting others into bodily harm. It’s a dangerous slope to start on.

TheMercenary · 08-26-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queequeger

Give no allowances for limiting of speech so long as you’re not threatening bodily harm directly, or inciting others into bodily harm. It’s a dangerous slope to start on.

To bad the Supreme Court disagrees.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-26-2007, 11:25 PM

(So we're into the third page from posts 56 and 57, and no explanation of his views from Bruce. Guess he never will tell me why he thinks as he does; his reasons for arguing with me are in effect non-existent -- or else he's doing it to tell me that in spite of the fundamentals we've actually got common ground on (gun rights being fundamental), he opposes me in all else. Silly, really, and the reason why I think I'm dealing with dingdongs.)

xoxoxoBruce · 08-27-2007, 02:31 AM

I'm so fucking good, I responded to post 57, in post 56.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-27-2007, 10:39 PM

Not visibly, Bruce. I don't think you have any basis for finding regime-change from autocracy to democracy "repulsive."

xoxoxoBruce · 08-28-2007, 05:08 AM

I sure it's not "visible" to you.
You can't understand why you shouldn't go into your neighbors house and kill him, because you don't like the way he treats his family, home schools his kids and doesn't wash his car. Why he might even end his sentences with a preposition.

You can't understand why you shouldn't go to the PTA meeting and kill the president, they elected, because you don't like the way he runs the meetings.

You can't understand why you shouldn't go to the church and kill the pastor, the congregation chose, because you don't like the way he handles the collections.

You can't understand that you are the bully, not the savior.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-31-2007, 04:55 AM

Boy, are you standing everything on its head and wrong-end-to, Bruce. You'd no more happily live under the misrule of a dictatorship than I would, and where is your understanding of the Baghdad taxi driver who quietly told a reporter before the invasion, and I quote: "If the Americans don't come, I'll kill myself."

I think that counts for something. Every Iraqi knew and still knows it would take a major invasion to shift Saddam and end his dark night. Note there is no insurgent flying the Ba'ath flag, though this could well be a ruse on the part of some Sunni factions. Still, too much of Iraq doesn't want the bad old Ba'ath dictatorship's days to return for it ever to be managed, it seems to me.

I understand that I am among the saviors, and telling me I'm a bully can't make me other than a savior. Sorry. Fighting battles of liberation is hardly bullying, but more the effective solution to bullying, wouldn't you think? Why would you think otherwise? You do not explain this; you merely call names. That's not arguing your point, but further evidence that you either can't find your own point or that you are wholly lacking one. This must be frustrating.

You clearly have nil understanding just how nasty a nondemocratic social order is, if you're going to compare it to a rather grubby neighbor, a PTA meeting, or a church congregation. It's wrong to trivialize this. Jeez, I thought we got this sorted back in WW2 when we noted that the Nazi Party wasn't much comparable to Republican or Democratic membership back here in CONUS. Had to remind a few people of that, we did.

Given your fondness for leaving oppressors to oppress -- unconscionable, all things considered, no? -- do you really think yourself an enlightened being? Let's just say it's wide open to doubt, Bruce. You're tolerating an incredible amount of injustice, and refusing to see the value of administering justice to those needing it meted out, and for those who have suffered and suffer yet in the power squabble.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-31-2007, 12:12 PM

I've learned about the savior.
I've studied the savior.
You ain't no savior.

You are nothing but a real live "Church Lady", telling the whole world how they should live.

Ask any cop about the perils of a "domestic".

Urbane Guerrilla · 09-05-2007, 02:07 AM

If you learned about the savior, then you aren't following his advice any too well -- you're not bringing the enlightenment to the places that don't have any. You'd rather just sit there, and in particular, you'd rather I just sit here. Bruce, I can't be a savior if I do what you want me to.

Thing is, human liberty is good for any human being, anywhere. Even in foreign parts. You seem not to consider this. All I'm telling anyone anywhere is you don't get to interfere in that in fascism's name or anything else's, and if you try, it's time for me to kill you. How could this be anything but the effective response to the bullying of the oppressor? Your rhetoric is suprisingly similar in tone to that of the Red Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, in communiques about "provocation." And it was pretty silly the first time around, too.

The whole world should live free -- except maybe xoxoxoBruce?

You're losing this argument, because you started from false first principles, and I started from true ones. What's more, I can articulate them.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-05-2007, 05:01 AM

Only in your mind, Don Quixote.

DanaC · 09-05-2007, 05:17 AM

That's a seriously special brand of self-delusion ya got going on there Urbane. Pretty impressive.

Aliantha · 09-05-2007, 05:57 AM

Don't be so hard on poor old UG Dana. lol

He's young. He knows not what he says. Nor does anyone else...but...that doesn't matter. At least he's a happy chappy.

DanaC · 09-05-2007, 06:46 AM

Young?

Urbane Guerrilla · 09-06-2007, 03:30 AM

Bruce is in the unhappy position of defending undemocracy from democracy. It's really quite an absurd position for someone of Bruce's fundamental understanding of human rights and civil liberties to take, I must say. He's out of ideas: he cannot show that non-democracy better suits certain peoples, whereas I can show that democracy suits every human living, and keeps them richer too. His last several posts have been ad-hominem only, and we all know what that means. Not only that, they're detumescing -- limper and limper and limper. No blood flowing, nourishing the substance.

I'm the partisan of democracy here -- he... well, he needs to become one. It's not exactly hard, but somehow for him it's uncomfortable. What, because he'd end up sitting near me? The wife tells me my physical frame is quite cuddly -- "cuddliscious" being her term.

Our chief difference, thee and me DanaC, is that we're working from different paradigms of government's proper sphere -- what, that is, it should be doing. There are philosophical and utilitarian arguments for either paradigm; for me the question is which arguments are the better. For twenty years plus I've been persuaded of the libertarian notion that government should be minimalist.

Now frankly, if you're going to call what I've written self-deluded, you are staggering under an enormous burden of proof. And so far, you've not done any proving. Since I am not self-deluded, you can't show I am, but I invite you to try anyway. Most of my opposition can't justify their stands -- some of them cannot justify themselves.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-06-2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Bruce is in the unhappy position of defending undemocracy from democracy.

No I'm not.

08-25-2007, 12:59 PM	#91
queequeger Hypercharismatic Telepathical Knight Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The armpit of the Universe... Augusta, GA Posts: 365	So seeing Nazi propaganda will make me a nazi? If someone goosesteps past my front door in a hitler youth costume, does that change my opinions? Well, if that's the case let's not allow Mein Kompf in libraries! Genius. One of our oh-so-holy founding fathers here in the US (and along with Thomas Jefferson, or T-Jeff as I like to call him, one of my favorite political thinkers) by the name of Benjamin Franklin said "a society that is willing to trade a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither and will lose both." The reason it's a bad idea to limit anyone's freedom of speech (such as contempt of court... bleh) is that we might not always be in charge. In the US in particular we seem to float back and forth between very left and very right. When the left is in power they see fit to eliminate hate speech. I hate hearing 'fag' and 'spick' just as much as the next guy, but what about in ten years? You lost all your privileges to say "I can say god is dead all I want, free speech!" Wrong-o moose breath. That’s hate speech against Christians! Give no allowances for limiting of speech so long as you’re not threatening bodily harm directly, or inciting others into bodily harm. It’s a dangerous slope to start on. __________________ Hoocha, hoocha, hoocha... lobster.

08-26-2007, 11:25 PM	#93
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	(So we're into the third page from posts 56 and 57, and no explanation of his views from Bruce. Guess he never will tell me why he thinks as he does; his reasons for arguing with me are in effect non-existent -- or else he's doing it to tell me that in spite of the fundamentals we've actually got common ground on (gun rights being fundamental), he opposes me in all else. Silly, really, and the reason why I think I'm dealing with dingdongs.) __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-27-2007, 02:31 AM	#94
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I'm so fucking good, I responded to post 57, in post 56. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-27-2007, 10:39 PM	#95
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Not visibly, Bruce. I don't think you have any basis for finding regime-change from autocracy to democracy "repulsive." __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-28-2007, 05:08 AM	#96
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I sure it's not "visible" to you. You can't understand why you shouldn't go into your neighbors house and kill him, because you don't like the way he treats his family, home schools his kids and doesn't wash his car. Why he might even end his sentences with a preposition. You can't understand why you shouldn't go to the PTA meeting and kill the president, they elected, because you don't like the way he runs the meetings. You can't understand why you shouldn't go to the church and kill the pastor, the congregation chose, because you don't like the way he handles the collections. You can't understand that you are the bully, not the savior. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-31-2007, 04:55 AM	#97
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Boy, are you standing everything on its head and wrong-end-to, Bruce. You'd no more happily live under the misrule of a dictatorship than I would, and where is your understanding of the Baghdad taxi driver who quietly told a reporter before the invasion, and I quote: "If the Americans don't come, I'll kill myself." I think that counts for something. Every Iraqi knew and still knows it would take a major invasion to shift Saddam and end his dark night. Note there is no insurgent flying the Ba'ath flag, though this could well be a ruse on the part of some Sunni factions. Still, too much of Iraq doesn't want the bad old Ba'ath dictatorship's days to return for it ever to be managed, it seems to me. I understand that I am among the saviors, and telling me I'm a bully can't make me other than a savior. Sorry. Fighting battles of liberation is hardly bullying, but more the effective solution to bullying, wouldn't you think? Why would you think otherwise? You do not explain this; you merely call names. That's not arguing your point, but further evidence that you either can't find your own point or that you are wholly lacking one. This must be frustrating. You clearly have nil understanding just how nasty a nondemocratic social order is, if you're going to compare it to a rather grubby neighbor, a PTA meeting, or a church congregation. It's wrong to trivialize this. Jeez, I thought we got this sorted back in WW2 when we noted that the Nazi Party wasn't much comparable to Republican or Democratic membership back here in CONUS. Had to remind a few people of that, we did. Given your fondness for leaving oppressors to oppress -- unconscionable, all things considered, no? -- do you really think yourself an enlightened being? Let's just say it's wide open to doubt, Bruce. You're tolerating an incredible amount of injustice, and refusing to see the value of administering justice to those needing it meted out, and for those who have suffered and suffer yet in the power squabble. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 08-31-2007 at 05:03 AM.

08-31-2007, 12:12 PM	#98
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I've learned about the savior. I've studied the savior. You ain't no savior. You are nothing but a real live "Church Lady", telling the whole world how they should live. Ask any cop about the perils of a "domestic". __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-05-2007, 02:07 AM	#99
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	If you learned about the savior, then you aren't following his advice any too well -- you're not bringing the enlightenment to the places that don't have any. You'd rather just sit there, and in particular, you'd rather I just sit here. Bruce, I can't be a savior if I do what you want me to. Thing is, human liberty is good for any human being, anywhere. Even in foreign parts. You seem not to consider this. All I'm telling anyone anywhere is you don't get to interfere in that in fascism's name or anything else's, and if you try, it's time for me to kill you. How could this be anything but the effective response to the bullying of the oppressor? Your rhetoric is suprisingly similar in tone to that of the Red Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, in communiques about "provocation." And it was pretty silly the first time around, too. The whole world should live free -- except maybe xoxoxoBruce? You're losing this argument, because you started from false first principles, and I started from true ones. What's more, I can articulate them. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

09-05-2007, 05:01 AM	#100
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Only in your mind, Don Quixote. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-05-2007, 05:17 AM	#101
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	That's a seriously special brand of self-delusion ya got going on there Urbane. Pretty impressive.

09-05-2007, 05:57 AM	#102
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Don't be so hard on poor old UG Dana. lol He's young. He knows not what he says. Nor does anyone else...but...that doesn't matter. At least he's a happy chappy. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

09-05-2007, 06:46 AM	#103
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Young?

09-06-2007, 03:30 AM	#104
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Bruce is in the unhappy position of defending undemocracy from democracy. It's really quite an absurd position for someone of Bruce's fundamental understanding of human rights and civil liberties to take, I must say. He's out of ideas: he cannot show that non-democracy better suits certain peoples, whereas I can show that democracy suits every human living, and keeps them richer too. His last several posts have been ad-hominem only, and we all know what that means. Not only that, they're detumescing -- limper and limper and limper. No blood flowing, nourishing the substance. I'm the partisan of democracy here -- he... well, he needs to become one. It's not exactly hard, but somehow for him it's uncomfortable. What, because he'd end up sitting near me? The wife tells me my physical frame is quite cuddly -- "cuddliscious" being her term. Our chief difference, thee and me DanaC, is that we're working from different paradigms of government's proper sphere -- what, that is, it should be doing. There are philosophical and utilitarian arguments for either paradigm; for me the question is which arguments are the better. For twenty years plus I've been persuaded of the libertarian notion that government should be minimalist. Now frankly, if you're going to call what I've written self-deluded, you are staggering under an enormous burden of proof. And so far, you've not done any proving. Since I am not self-deluded, you can't show I am, but I invite you to try anyway. Most of my opposition can't justify their stands -- some of them cannot justify themselves. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 09-06-2007 at 03:38 AM.

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