"Shoes Fly, Don't Bother Me" soundtrack to Bush's (R) latest visit to Iraq

Originally Posted by classicman

You quickly lumped me into a preconceived notion of yours which I find not only offensive, but completely wrong.

Looking back on the exchange, I should not have made light of it and it certainly did not contribute to any further productive discussion with those of opposing views for which I apologize.

I simply should have responded by saying that I found your characterization of my opinion of the troops to be offensive and completely wrong...and the expletive to be offensive and unworthy of response.

I made light of it at the end of this weird exchange but at a deeper level, it is very troubling that there are folks out their with such unwillingness to acknowledge the less than honorable actions of our government (and of a very small number of military personnel) without casting aspersions on the patriotism of those who believe it is always in our best interest to be open and willing to discuss such actions and incidents.

And to further understand why there are many around the world who no longer hold us in such high standing.

We, the US and UK, are supposed to be leaders of the free world. Not just the governments, but the people as well. One can only wonder why some are so afraid to allow us to display our warts along with our empathy and compassion for others...and to demonstrate that we are just simple human beings like any other in the world.

[DanaC]

To be fair, Redux, a lot of that comes from people who have an emotional investment in the forces.

To put it in a lighter context, I can get very defensive if people diss a show I have invested in emotionally:P Magnify that by a huge factor for people who've experienced the incredible unity and emotional connection that comes from serving in the forces.

Originally Posted by DanaC

To be fair, Redux, a lot of that comes from people who have an emotional investment in the forces.

To put it in a lighter context, I can get very defensive if people diss a show I have invested in emotionally:P Magnify that by a huge factor for people who've experienced the incredible unity and emotional connection that comes from serving in the forces.

Dana, I accept that and agree completely, particularly regarding other Cellar folks and their personal connection to the military, of which I know very little. Just as they know very little about my support for our men and women in uniform.

But there are many out there for whom it is an ideological war and to question their agenda or the actions of the government somehow makes one unpatriotic.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

But there are many out there for whom it is an ideological war and to question their agenda or the actions of the government somehow makes one unpatriotic.

I would never support that notion.

[DanaC]

Oh, I don't doubt that for a second, Redux. But the thing about ideology is it's usually founded on a set of beliefs and assumptions which are central to the individual's sense of self. It goes deep. That's not to say some people haven't manipulated the landscape a little to make it difficult for people of a different set of beliefs to question/criticise the actions of a government/party/military action. But for most people, ideology is at least as much an emotional commitment as it is a political one.

I dont expect the ideological differences to end. It is the stridency of the "debate" and the venomous personal nature of attacks that, IMO, is a relatively new phenomena.

Or maybe I am just getting old.

[DanaC]

*chuckles*

Maybe a little of both :P Times have changed. In many ways politics is less respectful, and less 'gentlemanly'. But I think it was always filthy behind the scenes. And people have always got very heated about politics. Look at the McCarthy era. Look at the ordinary, child-rearing, loving mothers and fathers who screamed hatred at the civil rights activists. Those weren't all 'bad' people. But they were reacting, at least in part from a fear that their society was going down the pan. We've now had several years of heightened sensitivity to the threat of terror and the 'islamist threat'. If people feel that their country and way of life is under threat then they are likely to react emotionally rather than seeking a deeper understanding: others wanting to seek a deeper undestanding become a part of the threat.

Not a reason to stop making the case of course.

McCarthy? Hey, I'm not that old!

I worked in the US Senate during the Reagan era and while there were significant ideological differences, there was civility.

Then again, we dont have anything like a weekly Prime Ministers Questions...but I want it!

[DanaC]

I think the sheer availability of 24 hr a day news coverage may also be a factor.

McCarthy brought back memories.

Time for a personal story

My great uncle was a victim of McCarthyism. He has been recognized as probably the greatest harmonica player of the 20th century and spent much of his life in the UK, where he performed for the royal famiily and as a backup on a couple of Procol Harem tracks.

His bio in cartoon!
http://www.procolharum.com/99/larry_adler.htm

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

McCarthy brought back memories.

Time for a personal story

My great uncle was a victim of McCarthyism. He has been recognized as probably the greatest harmonica player of the 20th century and spent much of his life in the UK, where he performed for the royal famiily and as a backup on a couple of Procol Harem tracks.

His bio in cartoon!
http://www.procolharum.com/99/larry_adler.htm

Damm! So they never hung him? That evil Americika!

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Damm! So they never hung him? That evil Americika!

You're a bitter angry little man.

You have my sympathy.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

You're a bitter angry little man.

You have my sympathy.

[DanaC]

Ahhh....now I see why you hate America! :P