Watching the Republicans - Runaway Train

[Lamplighter]

July 18, 2013

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Griff

I pay attention but I'm learning not to take things seriously. Empires fall, we're just in a unique position to watch. This is high entertainment if you keep your distance.

I keep trying to get this point across to my Dad, who laments the downfall of America every time we talk. It's inevitable. Someone else will be in power next. The human race will go on, just like Celine Dion's heart...

[Adak]

Most Republicans don't want a different result - they want to keep right on delaying the start of Obamacare.

Personally, I'd like to see a good NHS (National Health Service), but good to me, means it runs in a few county wide pilot projects first, while they work the kinks out of it. One thing nobody wants is a NHS that's got a lot of things wrong with it! Set it up, let it prove it's value in some pilot projects, and THEN implement it for the entire country.

And the cost of our health care will increase quite a bit, because there are a lot of people now with very minimal health care. Now, (one way or another), they would be covered.

And this idea that employers can opt out -- NO. We're all in this together, or it's crap. Workers at McDonalds, etc., all need health care, just as bad as anyone else.

We had a huge boost from WWII, while GB, France, Germany, Russia, China, Japan (and Korea in their war), all were seriously hurt. It's natural that other countries would start closing the gap, after all these years since 1945.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Adak

Most Republicans don't want a different result - they want to keep right on delaying the start of Obamacare.

Personally, I'd like to see a good NHS (National Health Service),
but good to me, means it runs in a few county wide pilot projects first,
while they work the kinks out of it.

One thing nobody wants is a NHS that's got a lot of things wrong with it!
Set it up, let it prove it's value in some pilot projects, and THEN implement it for the entire country.

<snip>

For now, I'll only take issue with this one paragraph.

Pilot projects have been run, but some people
either don't want to admit to their success,
or don't want to admit to their success.

Kaiser Permanente started during WWII... that's about 60+ years of "pilot project-ing".
Obamacare is closely modeled on this and similar health care programs.
All the things you hear about being included in Obamacare can be found in the KP health care coverages.
... no charges for preventative services such as immunizations
... no charges for diagnostic testing, such as lab tests
... no charges for diagnostic services, such as x-rays
... fixed costs of co-pays for "in hospital" surgeries, drugs, physician care, etc.
... no exclusion for pre-existing conditions
... no cap on total / annual care
... on and on, etc., etc.

As an example, my wife just came home last Sunday from having a
"full knee replacement" surgery + 2 days in hospital
(including free parking, private room with TV, meals, meds, etc.)
+ take-home cold-water pump to prevent/reduce swelling,
+ scheduled Physical / Occupational Therapy for 2 months post-surgery, etc. etc.
-------- our total co-pay cost was $215.00 + $28 for post-discharge pain meds.

If Kaiser Permanente can run such a health care provider program
in Washington, Oregon, and California for 60+ years,
how much more "pilot projecting" do you feel would be necessary
to switch Republicans over to supporting Obama ?
... Oh, I meant to say "over to supporting Obamacare ?"

Here is just one link to KP,

Medical Plans For Every Need And Budget.
Get Free Online Quotes Now!

but I'm sure it's easy to find more.

[DanaC]

One problem with small scale pilots of health provision is that you don't get the economy if scale to bring prices down and more importantly you don't have leverage at the research and price setting stages.

The nhs in the uk is one of the workd's biggest single employers and the purchasing power it wields gives it a lot weight with phaceutical companies. It's one of the reasons the uk punches far above its weight in research
And development if new drugs.

[Adak]

I'm familiar with Kaiser. I used to be on it. Overall, I give Kaiser good marks, but I'll tell you a little anecdote:

My foot (bottom of) was starting to hurt more and more, as I walked on it. Every day just a bit worse than the day before. Finally, went to Kaiser.

The doctor, looked at it, twisted my foot all around (ouch!) and took X-rays. Then twisted it around some more, for good measure. (Yes, it STILL hurts when you do that!). Couldn't do anything, had no idea what was causing it. Nothing they could do (no, I don't want your pain pills, although it was tempting).

Next day, foot hurt badly again. Went to a little Podiatrist's office. The RECEPTIONIST guides me into a little exam room, and ask to see the foot. She is going to report to the doctor, what she sees. **

She takes one glance at it, says "Oh, it's a lajkdf;ljkf (some kind of plantar wart that grows inward, instead of outward).

Doctor comes in a bit later, says "Oh, it's a lajkdf;ljkf", and says "how are you with pain?"

I say "I'm acquainted".

Doc says, "hold on and we can fix this really quickly." He grabs a surgical blade, and the receptionist and the doc help anchor my foot so it won't squirm, and he cuts it out. Slap a 3x3 gauze on it, and I'm out the door in 20 minutes, for $30, iirc.

Kaiser did fine with others, I know. Some serious failures, of course, but that was the doctors greed, not Kaiser's. I believe there's a big difference between a Kaiser model of practice, and the model that Obamacare must follow. Of course, I note that our Congress will not be using Obamacare, for their own medical care. I wonder why??

**As I was leaving, I found out the receptionist was the doc's daughter, and was studying Podiatry.

[Lamplighter]

I believe there's a big difference between a Kaiser model of practice, and the model that Obamacare must follow.

What is the big difference that you cite ?
... other than the obvious "nation-wide" vs "area -wide",
and Federal $ vs employer/individual $, etc

If you want to talk about existing incompetent or greedy MD's
and/or MBA Hospital Adminstrators, I think those would be points
in favor of implementing Obamacare.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Of course, I note that our Congress will not be using Obamacare, for their own medical care. I wonder why??

That's, like many of your complaints, is not true.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Adak

Of course, I note that our Congress will not be using Obamacare, for their own medical care. I wonder why??

If you want to argue that Congress is insulated from the real world, you have no argument. Which is why they can vote AGAINST Obamacare, because they will never have to worry about losing their homes to pay for crippling medical bills.

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

The Republicans have offered nothing constructive to this process after the passage of the bill. They are zero engaged in fixing it, only scuttling it. At this point, they have gone beyond constructive criticism, passed through principled resistance, took a long leisurely trip through pandering, and have reached a heretofore unknown plateau of obstructionism - political masturbation.

So while the great conservative white male circle jerk of opposition to ObamaCare continues, energy is taken away from more productive pursuits.

[Adak]

Obama spoke during his campaign, about bringing us together. Unfortunately, his acts have served to exploit and enhance our class, political, and racial differences. Remember the "Rich should pay their fair share", bull shit? Like the rich don't pay what the law requires??

We now know that the IRS instructions to hold up conservative 501(c)[3] groups from being approved, was NOT done by "some rogue IRS agents in Cincinnati", as the President's spokesman stated. No, it was directed by Obama's political appointee, to the IRS, in Atlanta, GA. If you know any IRS agents, they don't DO rogue. They're by the book, people.

Here's another one:

When GM went bankrupt, and was re-born, several dealerships had to be closed.

Obama's directors made sure EVERY single dealership that was allowed to stay in business, was a donor to the Democratic Party. All except for ONE black guy. Does that SOUND to you like someone who is trying to "bring us together"?

What about the Dreamer act that Obama passed (in violation of law and custom), while the Congress was still in session, but not available to pass his bill into law? (and would not have done it).

If he wanted support for a nationalized health care bill (and I agree, we need it), then why not STOP LYING about the cost of it, and give Congress time to study it before they have to vote on it.

In other words, work with Congress, instead of fighting against it.

Whether it's Fast and Furious, The Benghazi attack, the IRS targeting conservatives, or about Obamacare, Obama has lied, lied, and lied some more. I don't expect politicians to always tell the truth - because they talk too much, and have to win elections - but this is Obama's last term in office (no matter what), and he's still lying to us.

And of course, he's ruining the economy, through his damn heavy intrusion of government, into the private sector.

We can't get cheap Canadian oil down a pipeline, WHY? Yes, the Canadians would like to sell it to us, but they will sell it to China, if Obama doesn't change his mind.

History won't be kind to Obama. Well, the media loves him, but historians who are not Obama fan boys, will know better.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Adak

You mean like GE paying no corporate income tax?

--snip

Originally Posted by Adak

Obama spoke during his campaign, about bringing us together. Unfortunately, his acts have served to exploit and enhance our class, political, and racial differences. Remember the "Rich should pay their fair share", bull shit? Like the rich don't pay what the law requires??

--tl;dr

Are you saying that the fair share in this case is zero?

I didn't bother giving the bulk of your post any real attention because until you correct this misunderstanding/misdirection that "fair share"=="what the law requires", your arguments are built on sand. Implying that those two concepts are the same is bullshit, putting words in the President's mouth is bullshit.

There are galactic differences in class, politics, and racial prejudice and ignorance, some of which are well documented here. Pointing them out and encouraging discussion is not exploitation, and if those differences are enhanced for you, repent and close those differences.

[xoxoxoBruce]

But V, he heard it on the radio, it must be true.

[BigV]

funny, I was just thinking that I owe Adak a thanks for providing me such a concise digest of what's being reported on that end of the talk radio spectrum. I do listen myself on a fairly regular basis, maybe once a week. But it's exhausting listening to commercial after commercial with only the scarcest particles of news to break the monotony. Certainly there is plenty of opinion, and tha's fine, editorial input is--no--can be very useful. But the whining and double standards and poutrage (thanks Happy Monkey, I freakin love that word) are not what good editorials, much less good journalism is made of.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by BigV

funny, I was just thinking that I owe Adak a thanks for providing me such a concise digest of what's being reported on that end of the talk radio spectrum.

I agree. Instead of a trash compactor, he's a trash talk compactor.

It's amazing how the Republicans are being led by talk radio. I listen to MSNBC, which has a lot of liberal commentators, and I don't always agree with them. Nor do I see them promoting filibusters.

[BigV]

Hey, it worked in Berlin, didn't it?