Obama Care vs Republicans

[DanaC]

'tealiban' Ha! Haven't come across that one before.

Welcome to the Cellar, Jesus!

[Jesus]

Originally Posted by DanaC

'tealiban' Ha! Haven't come across that one before.

Welcome to the Cellar, Jesus!

Hi, and thank you for your very kind welcome.

[DanaC]

Continuing in my long tradition of getting most of my US news from the Daily Show, I just saw heard the most outrageous quote from a Republican congressman about the reasons for the shutdown:

Todd Rokita (R. Indiana): 'We just want to help the American people get by and through what is one of the most insidious laws ever created by man; and that is Obamacare'.

Wow. That is some seriously unbalanced perspective.

[Jesus]

When poor old white supremacists are being affected by the shut down, then it's gone too far. Republicans harming their base won't do them any favours!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...ef=mostpopular

A Ku Klux Klan rally planned for Saturday, Oct. 5 has been canceled because of the government shutdown.

On Sept. 26, officials at Gettysburg National Military Park granted a special-use permit for a rally to a Maryland-based KKK group. According to NBC 10 Philadelphia, the event was canceled when park officials rescinded all permits for special events because of the shutdown, which began 12 a.m. ET on Tuesday.

“Tourists will find every one of America's national parks and monuments, from Yosemite to the Smithsonian to the Statue of Liberty, immediately closed,” Obama said in a statement Tuesday. “And of course the communities and small business that rely on these national treasures for their livelihoods will be out of customers and out of luck.”

But not everyone took the closing of national parks and monuments sitting down. A group of World War II veterans visiting the National Mall on Tuesday stormed the WWII Memorial -- which is now technically closed to the public -- to pay their respects.

[glatt]

A rational person would think that, but the KKK is just going to blame the shutdown on the Democrats.

[Jesus]

cuz that kenyun in the white house running the gubmint when he aint even legally the presdint?

[Lamplighter]

Are people in the US prepared for a government shut down
for more than 2 weeks due to the GOP-obsession with Obamacare ?
That's when "Debt Ceiling" will supersede all the budget disagreements ?

This article starts out talking about the possibility of Obama
circumventing the Congress on the Dept Ceiling by some how invoking
the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.


Politico
Manu Raju, Jake Sherman and Carrie Budoff Brown
10/2/13

Wall Street comes to Washington. Will it matter? — Get ready for 14th amendment talk

Section 4 of the Reconstruction Era 14th amendment holds that
“[t]he validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law … shall not be questioned

But then it also gets into the current stew of yesterday's shut down of the government...

<snip>A harsh reality began setting into Capitol Hill …

The U.S. government may not reopen until the two parties reach a deal to raise the national debt ceiling. …
[i]f the standoff continues to creep toward the Oct. 17 deadline to raise the $16.7 trillion national debt ceiling,
the two issues will become intertwined — and potentially intractable.

House Republican leaders and top Senate Democrats privately began discussing this increasingly likely possibility Tuesday,
but the two sides have yet to engage in any direct negotiations in the acrimonious budget dispute …
Within the next few days, if House Republicans don’t accept a Senate plan to open the government until mid-November,
Reid is highly unlikely to accept a budget deal if it does not increase the debt ceiling, Democratic sources said Tuesday.

“If the House GOP won’t back the Senate’s stopgap plan by later this week,
Democrats are prepared to argue that it makes little sense to agree to a short-term spending bill
if Congress is forced to resolve another fiscal crisis in just a matter of days.
… A White House official said Tuesday night that the president could get behind Reid’s strategy.

… Republicans were internally weighing including a debt ceiling hike in their demands
to convene a House-Senate conference committee to discuss a bill to reopen the government.
In the coming days, the GOP leadership is likely to change its rhetoric,
with Republicans arguing about government funding and the debt ceiling in the same breath.”<snip>

Somehow, and I don't yet understand it, the GOP wants a Conference Committee
because by procedural rules, a vote will require 60% of the Congress (Senate filibuster ?),
not a majority of 51% as it is now.

[Pete Zicato]

Those of you who blame the republicans for the shutdown: it is easy to send mail to the RNC.

I have let them know that they are not making friends this way.

[Adak]

Those are cheap (relatively) diagnostics, NOT heart transplants!

"patients were subsequently managed by general practitioners, in consultation with cardiologists or the admitting physician".

Do you know what that means? That means your heart attack care will be handled by a GP, and probably, by an Internist - not even a Cardiologist. (Internists are more common).

They did however, find not one, not two, but three ways to successfully predict which one's would die earlier, and approximately when they would die.

Oh! That's FABULOUS medical care, right there!

[xoxoxoBruce]

You know what a cardiologist does, arrange for other doctors to take care of you.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Adak

Those are cheap (relatively) diagnostics, NOT heart transplants!

"patients were subsequently managed by general practitioners,
in consultation with cardiologists or the admitting physician".

Do you know what that means? That means your heart attack care will be handled by a GP,
and probably, by an Internist - not even a Cardiologist. (Internists are more common).

They did however, find not one, not two, but three ways to successfully predict
which one's would die earlier, and approximately when they would die.

Oh! That's FABULOUS medical care, right there!

Adak, your reactions are predictable.
But your first argument was that in the UK, Grandma would be turned
away with only a pain pill. That obviously is not true.
Next you jump to question the treatment... i.e., who gets transplants.

As to the current policy in the US, UK, etc... The following is from the
Guidelines of the International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation:


NY Times
Judith Graham
4/23/12

Heart Transplants for Older Patients

Just a decade ago, people 65 and older were routinely
rejected for heart transplants at all but a few institutions.
But in 2006, the International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation
issued new guidelines saying that heart failure patients
should be considered for transplants up to age 70.
[Also see note below]

In 2006, 243 patients age 65 and older in the United States received new hearts;
last year, that number was 332, according to data from the national
Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network.
(Data strictly on patients 70 and older is not available, according to the network.)
<snip>

What about the guidelines in the UK.
This is from the (UK) National Health Service:

NHS

Donated organs are a precious resource.
Their sharing is conducted under rules drawn up by the appropriate UK Transplant advisory committee,
ensuring that each organ is given to the most suitable recipient and that each patient, as far as possible,
is provided with equal access to available organs.

Patients are placed on the transplant waiting list by their local consultant physician or surgeon
in accordance with nationally agreed criteria.
Their names are then notified to UK Transplant for inclusion on the national transplant database.

Individual social and psychological needs are also considered during the clinical decision-making process.
Applying a moral argument to the allocation of an organ for transplant
or any medical treatment is not compatible with the ethos of the NHS.
The health service does not stand in judgement over the people it is being asked to care for.

(NOTE: for technical outcome reasons, organs (hearts) from elderly donors
sometimes do not transplant as successfully as from younger donors.

Rather than have these (older) organs go to waste, individual organs
deemed unsuitable for a young recipient can be offered to older patients on the waiting list.
It then becomes an personal decision by the potential recipient
as to whether to accept a given organ... or to remain on the waiting list
as prioritized according to their own individual health condition.

Adak, I hope your next jump does not go in the direction of UK physicians being more biased, unethical, etc....

[DanaC]

Our health service ain't perfect. But ya know what? We really don't have many people declared bankrupt because they had an accident and ended up with bills of hundreds of thousands of pounds.

We also don't have people with chronic conditions unable to access any medical care until it turns into an emergency and they end up in the ER.

We don't have death panels.

We do have a degree of rationing involved. That basically means that new drugs have to prove themselves as effective and cost effective.

You also have rationing. The difference is that yours is based on what your insurance is willing to cover.

And don't believe the newspapers. They have agendas.


[eta] Also, you don't even need to read a newspaper or watch the news to know how truly fucked up the current US healthcare system is. Just look in the Cellar. We have members here who have been sick and unable to get the right care. We have a member whose son was involved in a terrible car accident and left with serious health problems: his father had to give up work to look after him, which left him without health insurance. We have another member who only last month was unable to get the anti-depressant meds she needed because she had lost her job. Meds that should be withdrawn from slowly which she had to go cold turkey from. Why? because she no longer had health insurance and wasn't eligible for medicare (medicaid?) and couldn;t afford the $400 per month needed for those tablets.

Over here, she'd have to pay £7.75 for a prescription and they'd most likely give her three months supply for that. Or she could buy 3 months or a 1 year cover for all prescription charges.

I have two chronic health conditions requiring regular medication. It costs me nothing to see my doctor and my prescriptions are covered by a three month pre-pay certificate (£27.50). Regardless of what I need. I could need hundreds of pounds worth of medication and it will only ever cost me a prescription charge.

My Dad died in his 70s. The last 10 years of his life he was in and out of hospital. Sometimes staying in for a week or more at a time. They did everything they could for him. It didn't cost him a single penny: free prescriptions over the age of 65 and nobody is charged for staying in hospital - unless they choose to go private.

Your health system is probably better at some stuff than ours. But it is only available for those who can afford it. For the millions of Americans who have no health insurance, or whose insurance only covers basic care the system does not work.

[infinite monkey]

If I were on a real computer instead of my stupid phone, I would put this post in the hall of fame. Very well said, Dana.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Our health service ain't perfect. But ya know what? We really don't have many people declared bankrupt because they had an accident and ended up with bills of hundreds of thousands of pounds.

We also don't have people with chronic conditions unable to access any medical care until it turns into an emergency and they end up in the ER.

We don't have death panels.

We do have a degree of rationing involved. That basically means that new drugs have to prove themselves as effective and cost effective.

You also have rationing. The difference is that yours is based on what your insurance is willing to cover.

And don't believe the newspapers. They have agendas.


[eta] Also, you don't even need to read a newspaper or watch the news to know how truly fucked up the current US healthcare system is. Just look in the Cellar. We have members here who have been sick and unable to get the right care. We have a member whose son was involved in a terrible car accident and left with serious health problems: his father had to give up work to look after him, which left him without health insurance. We have another member who only last month was unable to get the anti-depressant meds she needed because she had lost her job. Meds that should be withdrawn from slowly which she had to go cold turkey from. Why? because she no longer had health insurance and wasn't eligible for medicare (medicaid?) and couldn;t afford the $400 per month needed for those tablets.

Over here, she'd have to pay £7.75 for a prescription and they'd most likely give her three months supply for that. Or she could buy 3 months or a 1 year cover for all prescription charges.

I have two chronic health conditions requiring regular medication. It costs me nothing to see my doctor and my prescriptions are covered by a three month pre-pay certificate (£27.50). Regardless of what I need. I could need hundreds of pounds worth of medication and it will only ever cost me a prescription charge.

My Dad died in his 70s. The last 10 years of his life he was in and out of hospital. Sometimes staying in for a week or more at a time. They did everything they could for him. It didn't cost him a single penny: free prescriptions over the age of 65 and nobody is charged for staying in hospital - unless they choose to go private.

Your health system is probably better at some stuff than ours. But it is only available for those who can afford it. For the millions of Americans who have no health insurance, or whose insurance only covers basic care the system does not work.

[DanaC]

Most of the problems in our health service, most of the gaps in service, are due to the creeping privatisation of parts of the service.

Our politicians are trying to make our health service more like yours. Why, I do not know. But it is breaking the healthcare system.

Every time you see a news report about failures in the NHS, it ain't because medicine is socialised, it's because it is becoming less so.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Our politicians are trying to make our health service more like yours. Why, I do not know.

Yes you do, everybody knows, £££££££££!