09-14-2007, 07:35 PM | #106 | |||
Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian
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As an aside, although you insist that the Soviet Union isn't an example of Marxism in practice, Marx did view revolution as necessary to his program. Solzhenitsyn and Rand, who were far more intimately familiar with Soviet Marxism than you ever can have been, knew they were living under Marxism and that Marxism requires violence and oppression. How can you say you're a Marxist, and then claim that an essential part of Marx's program was a 'mistake'? The 'mistake' is inherent in his philosophy. Quote:
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09-14-2007, 07:50 PM | #107 | |
Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian
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A case in point: in Moosonee (on James Bay), where my husband and I practiced medicine when our oldest child was small, the government provided taxpayer-funded housing for both band status and non-status Indians. Fairly frequently the local band would complain to the government that the housing was in bad repair and needed to be replaced. It happens that my brother-in-law, who is a cabinet maker, was contracted to provide new kitchens and baths in the housing that the government built around that time. He was paid to put in very good quality cabinets - not base, cheap stuff; and he did. When he returned two weeks later to deliver a few more cabinets to one last house, he checked on the other houses to see if anything else was required. In the majority of brand-new houses there were holes in the walls, and cabinets had been ripped right off the walls. No one took care of the houses or fittings, because no one there had paid for them. In this same community, when I made house calls, I would typically visit a house that had broken windows, holes in the walls, and dirt everywhere. But there was a big TV and satellite dish, new snow machines outside, and new trucks. The government-provided housing (exactly the same stuff as I lived in with my family) was trashed and the welfare checks had gone on the luxuries. The clinic was expected to provide the baby formula and medicines that people 'couldn't afford'. I think that expecting integrity and responsibility from people is actually treating them 'better' than giving them endless handouts. That proved true in our practice, where we expected people to be on time (and we respected their time by also being on time - really!), and expected people to take responsibility in certain things. We developed an excellent relationship. If we had not asked anything of our practice, we would have received exactly what we had asked for.
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi |
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09-14-2007, 09:53 PM | #108 | ||||||
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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09-14-2007, 11:21 PM | #109 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
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Far from it. You never gave an acceptable answer. Just some esoteric BS. I give plenty and am far from carrying around the extra baggage of guilt for the poor down trodden who care not to care for themselves.
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09-14-2007, 11:25 PM | #110 | |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
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You are not entitled to happiness in our system, you are entitled to the pursuit of it, not the end result.
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09-14-2007, 11:30 PM | #111 | |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
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Those who know and care for people of the street can almost without doubt promise that money given to the dude on the street can tell you that it is a bad idea to give them cash.
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09-14-2007, 11:33 PM | #112 | |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
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09-14-2007, 11:35 PM | #113 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
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Another pipe dream. Attitudes like that will make you fresh meat.
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09-15-2007, 04:09 AM | #114 | ||
We have to go back, Kate!
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Even I think that's too much. It damaged the country and led to problems. But, I think we've now gone too far the other way, with the highest earners paying ( I believe) £0.40 in every £1. What I am in favour of is an increase in the current level without going as high as we did in the 70s. Like I say, what I am talking about is changing the balance of that taxation system, not abandoning capitalism in favour of a workers' state. As to the 'marxism' thing. Yes, he saw revolution as a necessary phase to go through in order to achieve a workers' state. But that was in a particular time and place and yes I think he got that part wrong. When I say I take a marxist analysis, I am talking about a way of looking at the relationship between the owners and the producers of wealth. Like many 'marxists' or 'socialists' in Europe I believe that perspective still has much to tell us about the world and is still relevant. You mentioned Aristotle. Another philospher whose thoughts on the world still have relevance today. But also, like anybody writing in a different era to our own there will be elements of his thinking which do not apply to the modern world (read 'Politics' and how it deals with the issue of slavery and the role of women in society) which were central parts of his worldview and which if we follow your logic should mean we cease to apply all his logic/philosphy to the modern world. The world changes. People write and philosophise to the world as it is to them. Some of what they write and philosophise still applies to our world, some of it is consigned to the point in time when they were writing. Quote:
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09-15-2007, 07:01 AM | #115 | ||||
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I suspect that the top marginal tax rate in England is probably better than 40% once hidden taxes are added in. In Canada the official top federal marginal rate is 29%. Sounds great. But with provincial taxes, health tax, and the Canadian version of the supertax, someone earning in the top ten percent pays more than 50% of income to taxes. Then there are high property taxes and a 14% sales tax on all goods and services. At that point there's a serious disincentive to continue being productive. Quote:
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09-15-2007, 01:20 PM | #116 | |
Franklin Pierce
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Honestly, I believe equal pay could easily work for humans since pay is an unnatural asset, which is much more compatible with equality than natural traits such as strength, smarts, looks, and charisma. The reason why I do not think equal pay will work for western society is that we put so much emphasis on money since that is what divides us into classes. If humans grew up in a classless society, money would seem no more important to us than our ability to vote and our hierarchy would change to prestige and respect. That is the biggest flaw I see in Communism, humans can not successfully switch from a society that puts so much emphasis on money as a divider in our hierarchy to a system that makes us equal in that area. It has nothing to do with money itself because the same thing has happened in the past with areas such as rights. Equality in terms of rights did not happen when blacks and whites were told to be equal, and a fight still exists to this day but each generation gets more and more used to the idea of equal rights because we are raised in a more tolerant environment. If a generation is raised in an environment that puts little emphasis of the importance of money, a society where there is equal pay will flourish nicely. Just that, I do not think that will ever happen or at least not for a few hundred years. |
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09-15-2007, 02:30 PM | #117 | ||||||
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Those efforts evolved into farming, manufacturing and building, but the goal was still survival, and for the best at it, the reward is more comfort. When the efforts became organized, for economies of scale, barter was no longer practical, so money was used to keep track of individual efforts. That paycheck is the reward for your effort to survive, which is as natural as it comes. Quote:
It is impossible to have a "society" without organization, and organization needs leadership, so that the pigs will always be more equal than others. Quote:
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09-15-2007, 03:19 PM | #118 |
Looking forward to open mic night.
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Wow...people assume that since I gave some money away unasked that I was presumptuous and not helpful at all.....but presuming that he went to spend it on drugs and beer is ok?
Proving my point as I'm trying to make it? Maybe he needed money to call his momma? Who cares. I let him keep some dignity by assuming that he was an adult that could possibly spend his money on something useful. Or not....that's the point of gifting anything...maybe it will make a difference in someones life or not. You never know. If you buy someone a steak and they choke to death on it is it your fault for buying it? Poor people shouldn't get gifted money because they are automatically suspect. That's so shitty. This is an example of the status and class warfare rearing it's ugly little head again. When the "Monday Morning Man" story began my financial situation was contrastedly different than it is now. Now I really do hope that when I need it there will be help provided, and no judgements are made about what I'm going to buy. Because you never know do you. My little world is starting to crumble.....fuck it...maybe I will go suck some dick UT if it means getting through this recent change in all my financial affairs. Or just do the side-business that I was planning in the first place.....Wait....sucking dick is "bad" maybe I'll do that because that's what I'm about. Oh, I know you are going to be pissed: I wouldn't pay taxes on sucking dick UT. It's taxing and compassionate enough as it is I'm sure.....Maybe sucking dick is more of an honest exchange than the things I do for work every day? Not sure......could be true. Sounds true to me but maybe not. I have thought that before. I already said that my comments were unfair and not justified. You obviously aren't going to listen to a sincere apology for that. So I'm not going to make it again. It's not just because you are a leader on this board....I don't pander. It's because it was uncalled for and I know it. I would have tried to erase it before you saw it if someone hadn't commented on it so fast- because that behavior isn't like me and there was no reason for it other than just plain acting petty. It's really not usually like me to personally attack people. Hey- I guess there is a human bone in my body. I'm going to get over it and be more kind. (to everyone) UT-You didn't check me by any means. I quickly tried to make up for it myself. So don't go and give yourself a pat on the back for being a jerk back. Nothing good came of that. Which is why I don't usually take up that kind of attitude. More good has probably come from sucking dick. Ooohh. Sucking dick- big whoop. Please don't alter my statements or stories just to suit your purposes whether I agree with you or not. Just a request. This is all. On that note: I hope everyone is having a nice weekend, and I will play nice....not because people try and sit on my chest when I'm not nice. It's because I think myself, amongst others, need to enhance rather than destroy. Too much negative energy about....make a concerted effort not to create it. I catch myself doing it and it's not right.
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09-15-2007, 03:54 PM | #119 | ||||||||
Franklin Pierce
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And also, do you think you could truly be free of being controlled by someone more powerful than you in a hierarchical system? Do you think we have equality in your definition in the United States right now? Quote:
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And the idea of the paycheck is not what I think is as so unnatural but the idea of one person gets a greater chunk than someone else is a idea that started only a few thousand years ago. People in hunter-gatherer societies didn't have one person with all the food while others starved. The fact that humans have lived both ways make the argument of a hierarchal system determining who can eat or not being natural or unnatural pointless. Quote:
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09-15-2007, 07:12 PM | #120 | ||||||||||||
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Give every kid a solid basic education in the 3-Rs, then in High School provide different paths to choose from that will prepare them to make their way in the world. Quote:
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