Gay Marriage - Page 8

juju · 11-22-2003, 08:02 PM

Silly me. I should have just listened to SteveDallas 3 months ago when he said:

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveDallas
Well, permit me to suggest that when you hear someone say "that's not natural," you simply subsitute "I don't like it and I don't have a good reason."

As you point out, in a certain sense an apartment building may not be natural--but if it's not, neither is a beaver's dam or a bee's hive. The word "natural" in this context is completely void of meaning, and is a blank slate upon which the speaker can lay his or her prejudices. Feel free to ignore its use; you have my permission.

insoluble · 11-22-2003, 08:10 PM

very well put

JeepNGeorge · 11-22-2003, 11:36 PM

how is a recessive trait surfacing every once in a while unnatural?

it's not normal, but natural

But do they get treated different?

You bet they do. The sun will burn their skin easier, they can't use their normal skin/fur/plumage to hide from predators.

my original statement goes like this
"To me being gay is unnatural, I know how can I be so backwards in my thinking. Having sex is enjoyable and if you enjoy having sex with a person of the same gender fine go right ahead. But in the end sex, is a means to reproduce, we like it so we can survive as a species. Again this is just my humble opinion and I'm sure there are others out there that disagree. But don't come whining to me cause you don't have the same rights as heterosexual people. "

My use of unnatural is more along the lines of a basic need for a species to survive. We have the technology now to make unfertile people produce. They can have kids, but have to pay more for fertility drugs, suffer emotional stress or other things that are otherwise not common for producing offspring. If we are talking equality lets give them some extra rights too.

While some animals might engage in homosexual activity it's not for the furtherence of the species. Natural insemination instead of artificial insemination if you will. Gay monkeys can't go to the ape doctor and get artificially impregnated. Natural selection. That was my meaning behind natural.

Government is not 'natural' as well, but we are trying to force it to give everybody the equal rights they were naturally/artificially born with.

I'm not asking you to read my words and instantly change your mind. I'm just asking you to consider all things.

Whats keeping two people from living together, as man and wife, or man and man, or woman and woman nothing. I don't need the gubments permission to do that. In some states they still have common law marriages when man and woman who do that will be considered 'married' by default, but do they care for the paper??? No or they would have been 'married'.

I think what the gays/lesbians are really after is the fringe benifites as I mentioned before. The tax credits, the death benifites.

Why don't they lobby so all people will be able to use them? I mean if my parents die and they want to leave the house and land to me, they can but I have to pay an estate tax on it. The government will pass laws to give two gays more rights than a mother/father and thier natural born offspring. Something just seems wrong with that to me.

So many times we fight for the rights or our group to be considered equal or more equal than others, but we get caught up in the semantics of it we loose sight of the big picture. What usually ends up happening is that we only make the government bigger and more powerful in our lives.

Don't believe me.

Consider one of the Nazi's first offenses against the jews was to simply put a sign on the window shops of non-jew businesses in 1933. Nothing wrong with that right. I mean come on it's just a little sign that says 'German Firm'. What a display of patriotism right? We know now how evil that was because we know the outcome of 1943.

Come on it's just a piece of paper. Just one more thing we have to go the government for. Just one more record they will have about us.

I mean it was just a little sign for the german owned stores right?

No I'm not saying that millions of people will die again if gay's are allowed to marry. Hell they are already living a married life aren't they. But do we really need the gubment to say it's right?

All I want is for people to check out the things they are asking the government to do.

No I'm not some militahead, yes I do think people need some kind of government for society to live. Yes I'm proud to be american and display my flag proudly, but doesn't the fact that I'm an american allow me to question the governments motive.

Is this the best possible outcome of the situation? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Could they remove certain other laws and get the same results? Maybe, maybe not. But question, always question.

Society will never be equal. There will always be a winner and a loser. We cannot ever legislate a truly equal society. After this debate is long over there will be yet another group of people who will want something and yet more laws enacted.

juju · 11-23-2003, 01:04 AM

Quote:

it's not normal, but natural

Ok, fair enough.

Quote:

While some animals might engage in homosexual activity it's not for the furtherence of the species. Natural insemination instead of artificial insemination if you will. Gay monkeys can't go to the ape doctor and get artificially impregnated. Natural selection. That was my meaning behind natural.

Think about this, though. Many birds and mammals are known to display homosexual behavior. Birds and mammals aren't even closely related at all. The common ancestor that they must have inherited that trait from lived well over 65 million years ago. Natural selection has selected <i>for</i> homosexuality.

Quote:

think what the gays/lesbians are really after is the fringe benifites as I mentioned before. The tax credits, the death benifites.

Why don't they lobby so all people will be able to use them? I mean if my parents die and they want to leave the house and land to me, they can but I have to pay an estate tax on it. The government will pass laws to give two gays more rights than a mother/father and thier natural born offspring. Something just seems wrong with that to me.

Yes, of course they're after the benefits. They want things like power of attorney, so that if their spouse drops dead or goes into a brain-dead coma, they'll actually have a say over what happens.

They don't want more rights than others, they want the <i>same</i> rights. How does giving them equal marriage rights harm you?

Pie · 11-23-2003, 01:01 PM

I've heard that population presssure is one factor that increases the incidence of homosexual behavior in many species. (I'm too lazy to look up the link right now.)

So from that perspective, it's all the heterosexual "breeders" that are creating the biological/sociological drive towards more homosexuality in the first place!

Maybe this next question could be answered by someone who claims that marriage is only a means to provide for children -- I'm married, I don't plan on ever breeding.

Should I be forced to get a divorce since I don't fit in with your world-view?

- Pie

quzah · 11-23-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dagney
And by the way, for millions of Christians, the Bible IS law. You may not like it, but that's how they run their lives.

The bible is selectively law. Keep the parts you like, ignore the rest. Right? I mean seriously, no one goes by all of the Old Testament laws as transcribed. Hell, no one even lives by all of the New Testament.

I'll stop here before I go off on a tirade.

Oh and to be on topic, sure, why not. It doesn't affect me. If you've found your person of choice and you want to be with them forever, knock yourself out. If you want some piece of paper saying you're now united as one. By all means, go ahead. I could care less either way.

Quzah.

quzah · 11-23-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blue58
They should have equal treatment as far as I'm concerned...but don't change what I have & believe in in order to accomodate your desires.

So I should change my belief to fit your view, but you shouldn't change at all to fit mine? Whatever the view is. In other words, your view of everything on earth is right, and no one else has a valid point of view, and you don't have to acknowledge said point of view.

Wow. Look up 'narrow minded' in the dictionary. I think there's a picture of your face next to it.

Quzah.

slang · 11-23-2003, 05:51 PM

This has turned into a complicated but fascinating issue. There's so much info available on gay marriage and all the tangent issues, I've been reading for hours on end.

The original outline I made to detail and support my position has been rewritten several times and I'm just now starting to finalize it. But I keep finding additional relevant info!

I'm pushing the target release date back. This is a short week coming up. I'll get something posted next weekend.

Ut says I can posts the entire paper when it's ready. Those of you that have been here a while know what that means, a lot of info coming.

The format should allow the reader to navigate the pages and links without a real hassle.

stay tuned.

quzah · 11-23-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blue58
And for what it's worth, no I don't really understand the gay lifestyle and will admit it. The sex part I can understand, the lifestyle and desire to spend your life with a same sex partner somewhat baffles me.

What's hard to figure out? Picture those frat boys hanging out in their house. They go hang out together. They go get hammered together. They go play football together. Whatever.

Now picture that you find yourself never wanting to end that. (Oh yeah sure, I'm sure the "gay lifestyle" isn't a big frat party, but it's a quick hack of an analogy.)

Or how about those "wierd people" that live with their brother? Is that wierd? God damn crazy fuckers. Why would they want to live with their brother?

So far in life I've known two sets of brothers that live in the same house. One I worked with, who was in his late thirties, early fourties, never met his brother.

The other was younger. The younger pair of brothers had purchased a house together.

God damn freaks I tell you! They shouldn't be allowed to buy a house together! What is this world coming to! Buying a house is a sacred right that only single people and married straight couples should be able to do!

I mean really, what part of this is hard to figure out? You and Person-X can't get enough of eachother. You decide you want to live together for whatever reason; less rent, you like the way they decorate, they're a great ride. Whatever.

What is the unfathomable concept here?

You know what, there's even these freaks that live with their parents!

Quzah.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-23-2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Think about this, though. Many birds and mammals are known to display homosexual behavior. Birds and mammals aren't even closely related at all. The common ancestor that they must have inherited that trait from lived well over 65 million years ago. Natural selection has selected for homosexuality.

Can't buy that Juju. The only thing that was inherited was the physical make up that makes sex feel good, in a world that's mostly about two states, feeling threatened or not. Do you think the birds and mammals are reasoning that they must continue the species. I don't think so. Come to think of it they may have inherited the predisposition to find the opposite sex to use to feel good. But I feel critter homosexuals are a case of "love the one you're with" rather than a conscious choice.
The other thing is to what advantage would it have for nature to do that.

slang · 11-23-2003, 09:06 PM

Good observation Bruce. I didnt think of that.

JeepNGeorge · 11-23-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quzah

Or how about those "wierd people" that live with their brother? Is that wierd? God damn crazy fuckers. Why would they want to live with their brother?

So far in life I've known two sets of brothers that live in the same house. One I worked with, who was in his late thirties, early fourties, never met his brother.

The other was younger. The younger pair of brothers had purchased a house together.

God damn freaks I tell you! They shouldn't be allowed to buy a house together! What is this world coming to! Buying a house is a sacred right that only single people and married straight couples should be able to do!

I mean really, what part of this is hard to figure out? You and Person-X can't get enough of eachother. You decide you want to live together for whatever reason; less rent, you like the way they decorate, they're a great ride. Whatever.
Quzah.

So why can't the brothers have the same rights as the gay people? They can live together the same as gay people, but if one brother leaves the world before the other, I'm sure there will be a hefty tax penalty for leaving the house to the remaining brother.

I can't and won't stop two people from doing what they want, but what the gays are fighting for would be benificial to a whole group of people no just another selected minority.

quzah · 11-23-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
So why can't the brothers have the same rights as the gay people? They can live together the same as gay people

No, that's called incest.

Anyway, you missed the analogy. The comment was inregards to... well just read the quote. They couldn't understand how people of the same sex would want to live together; the sex they could understand.

So what part can't you understand?

Quzah

juju · 11-23-2003, 10:43 PM

I really don't understand what you're trying to say, Bruce.

You concede that heterosexual attractions may be biological, but homosexual behaviors aren't? In other words, all these animals are "choosing" to have gay sex?

If not, could you maybe reword your argument for me?

Undertoad · 11-24-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

The other thing is to what advantage would it have for nature to do that.

Nature rarely does things randomly, so this question is more difficult than it appears.

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11-22-2003, 11:36 PM	#108
JeepNGeorge Hand-of-Kindness Extender Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Where am I? Posts: 139	how is a recessive trait surfacing every once in a while unnatural? it's not normal, but natural But do they get treated different? You bet they do. The sun will burn their skin easier, they can't use their normal skin/fur/plumage to hide from predators. my original statement goes like this "To me being gay is unnatural, I know how can I be so backwards in my thinking. Having sex is enjoyable and if you enjoy having sex with a person of the same gender fine go right ahead. But in the end sex, is a means to reproduce, we like it so we can survive as a species. Again this is just my humble opinion and I'm sure there are others out there that disagree. But don't come whining to me cause you don't have the same rights as heterosexual people. " My use of unnatural is more along the lines of a basic need for a species to survive. We have the technology now to make unfertile people produce. They can have kids, but have to pay more for fertility drugs, suffer emotional stress or other things that are otherwise not common for producing offspring. If we are talking equality lets give them some extra rights too. While some animals might engage in homosexual activity it's not for the furtherence of the species. Natural insemination instead of artificial insemination if you will. Gay monkeys can't go to the ape doctor and get artificially impregnated. Natural selection. That was my meaning behind natural. Government is not 'natural' as well, but we are trying to force it to give everybody the equal rights they were naturally/artificially born with. I'm not asking you to read my words and instantly change your mind. I'm just asking you to consider all things. Whats keeping two people from living together, as man and wife, or man and man, or woman and woman nothing. I don't need the gubments permission to do that. In some states they still have common law marriages when man and woman who do that will be considered 'married' by default, but do they care for the paper??? No or they would have been 'married'. I think what the gays/lesbians are really after is the fringe benifites as I mentioned before. The tax credits, the death benifites. Why don't they lobby so all people will be able to use them? I mean if my parents die and they want to leave the house and land to me, they can but I have to pay an estate tax on it. The government will pass laws to give two gays more rights than a mother/father and thier natural born offspring. Something just seems wrong with that to me. So many times we fight for the rights or our group to be considered equal or more equal than others, but we get caught up in the semantics of it we loose sight of the big picture. What usually ends up happening is that we only make the government bigger and more powerful in our lives. Don't believe me. Consider one of the Nazi's first offenses against the jews was to simply put a sign on the window shops of non-jew businesses in 1933. Nothing wrong with that right. I mean come on it's just a little sign that says 'German Firm'. What a display of patriotism right? We know now how evil that was because we know the outcome of 1943. Come on it's just a piece of paper. Just one more thing we have to go the government for. Just one more record they will have about us. I mean it was just a little sign for the german owned stores right? No I'm not saying that millions of people will die again if gay's are allowed to marry. Hell they are already living a married life aren't they. But do we really need the gubment to say it's right? All I want is for people to check out the things they are asking the government to do. No I'm not some militahead, yes I do think people need some kind of government for society to live. Yes I'm proud to be american and display my flag proudly, but doesn't the fact that I'm an american allow me to question the governments motive. Is this the best possible outcome of the situation? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Could they remove certain other laws and get the same results? Maybe, maybe not. But question, always question. Society will never be equal. There will always be a winner and a loser. We cannot ever legislate a truly equal society. After this debate is long over there will be yet another group of people who will want something and yet more laws enacted. Last edited by JeepNGeorge; 11-22-2003 at 11:43 PM.

11-23-2003, 01:01 PM	#110
Pie Gone and done Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 4,808	Something to consider I've heard that population presssure is one factor that increases the incidence of homosexual behavior in many species. (I'm too lazy to look up the link right now.) So from that perspective, it's all the heterosexual "breeders" that are creating the biological/sociological drive towards more homosexuality in the first place! Maybe this next question could be answered by someone who claims that marriage is only a means to provide for children -- I'm married, I don't plan on ever breeding. Should I be forced to get a divorce since I don't fit in with your world-view? - Pie __________________ per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not.

11-22-2003, 08:10 PM	#107
insoluble developmentally disabled rear end headwear Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: syracuse, ny Posts: 207	very well put

11-23-2003, 05:51 PM	#113
slang St Petersburg, Florida Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,423	This has turned into a complicated but fascinating issue. There's so much info available on gay marriage and all the tangent issues, I've been reading for hours on end. The original outline I made to detail and support my position has been rewritten several times and I'm just now starting to finalize it. But I keep finding additional relevant info! I'm pushing the target release date back. This is a short week coming up. I'll get something posted next weekend. Ut says I can posts the entire paper when it's ready. Those of you that have been here a while know what that means, a lot of info coming. The format should allow the reader to navigate the pages and links without a real hassle. stay tuned.

11-23-2003, 09:06 PM	#116
slang St Petersburg, Florida Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,423	Good observation Bruce. I didnt think of that.

11-23-2003, 10:43 PM	#119
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I really don't understand what you're trying to say, Bruce. You concede that heterosexual attractions may be biological, but homosexual behaviors aren't? In other words, all these animals are "choosing" to have gay sex? If not, could you maybe reword your argument for me?

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