03-15-2004, 12:38 PM | #106 | |
Constitutional Scholar
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And as far has being called a looney, it's fairly common for those who have run out of gas in a debate and been backed into a corner with no escape from the facts to try to dismiss you as being a "looney" rather than trying to come up with an intelligent, logical, cogent argument to prove their side. This is less painful to them than just admitting I'm right.
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03-15-2004, 12:44 PM | #107 | ||||||||||||||
The urban Jane Goodall
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"To summarize: the paradigmatic natural law view holds that (1) the natural law is given by God; (2) it is naturally authoritative over all human beings; and (3) it is naturally knowable by all human beings. Further, it holds that (4) the good is prior to the right, that (5) right action is action that responds nondefectively to the good, that (6) there are a variety of ways in which action can be defective with respect to the good, and that (7) some of these ways can be captured and formulated as general rules." http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-law-ethics/ Quote:
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And as far as the over-arching rights thing goes, see my argument towards the beginning. What books do you read?
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I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle |
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03-15-2004, 01:01 PM | #108 | ||
I think this line's mostly filler.
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_________________ |...............| We live in the nick of times. | Len 17, Wid 3 | |_______________| [pics] |
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03-15-2004, 01:02 PM | #109 | |
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Consider the way a person would react to the following statments: "I terminated the fetus parasitically attached to me." "I killed the baby growing inside me". Lets call it for what it is: Killing the baby. Why couch it in different terms? Because it doesn't "sound as bad" if you use different words. |
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03-15-2004, 01:02 PM | #110 | |
I am meaty
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*cough* But seriously, you've made a lot of excellent points... Your views on this matter are alarmingly similar to my own . You've just managed to express yours more eloquently. Whether the knife is a switchblade or a scalpel, a mother is never legally required to put herself in front of one to save her child, unborn or otherwise. Sure, it's morally reprehensible to put a child in grave danger for one's own piddly concerns, but individuals can make decisions about, and pay the consequences for, what happens to one's own person. In this instance, I think a charge ending with "endangerment" or "neglect" would be good, if for no other purpose than to remove her children from their self-serving mother, and to prevent her from having even more kids.
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03-15-2004, 01:04 PM | #111 | |
I think this line's mostly filler.
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03-15-2004, 01:06 PM | #112 |
still eats dirt
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Up until the second they are born, they are a fetus (not a child) and a fetus is not entitled to rights.
So the moment the living being touches air outside of the womb, they are a child? What if the child is born really early, but is still dependant on machines for life, much as a fetus/parasite? I find it odd that until the umbilical cord is cut, a "fetus" is not a "person" despite having all the physical and technical requirements for being one. Once outside the body, the child is still just as dependant on its mother for survival as it was when it was inside her body. Common sense follows natural law which dictates that we each own our own bodies and everything in them. Where are you getting this from? From what are you basing "natural law"? From what most everyone else is telling me, our laws in this country are Christian-based. |
03-15-2004, 01:08 PM | #113 |
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It's not a matter of what I'm trying to make them feel. What they feel is not the issue.
I've had two abortions. I've killed 2 children. Whether I call them fetuses or babies is irrelevant. There are 2 less human beings in the world because of my actions. I am a murderer, just as sure as Travis is. The difference is that that law says I can kill babies that are under a certain age. And that's the only difference. The babies are still dead, wither it's 3 days before birth or 3 days after. I just think we need to stop trying to make it sound anything other than what it is. edit: I am pro-choice, up to a point. That point is where the baby can survive if removed from the mother. |
03-15-2004, 01:12 PM | #114 | ||||
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
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Childfree person: "I don't want kids." Other: "But why? Don't you want to continue your bloodline? Don't you want to give your parents grandchildren? Isn't that being selfish?" *although in my case, I've usually gotten, "I don't blame ya!" or "Good...don't!", but I don't like hearing others getting questioned like that.* Person who wants kids: "I want (insert number) of kids." Other: (goes into a conversation about how they want kids too, etc., and not "Why?"). Quote:
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"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~ "The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It" |
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03-15-2004, 01:25 PM | #115 | |
I can hear my ears
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it's your right to feel that way, but can you incarcerate someone who does not share this belief? not many will admit it, but most would put their own survival in front of EVERYONE else's. It's how we're wired. survival instincts. at some point, i think that shifts and is eclipsed by our genetic yearning to continue our blood line ( the only true immortality) and we would sacrifice ourself to save our offspring. But, i don't think this shift occurs until the child has a personality.
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03-15-2004, 01:30 PM | #116 | |
I am meaty
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Edit: ...of course, putting one's own life after a cluster of cells which wouldn't survive on it's own would be silly, so I partially agree, with the caveat that the fetus must be developed to the point where it can be saved should the mother die. As an exercise in testing where one measures the boundaries of an individual's rights... say there are a pair of conjoined twins who have grown into adulthood. A life-threatening condition develops in twin A which requires a surgical procedure only available in another country. Twin B refuses to travel to that country for his/her own reasons, and likewise refuses to be surgically separated. He/she cannot be convinced to do otherwise of his/her own volition. Which of the following is MOST morally correct?: A. Twin A is out of luck. B. Twin B should be forced to travel to the country so twin A can undergo the surgery. C. The twins should be surgically separated against Twin B's wishes, so that Twin A may get the life-saving surgery on his/her own. Not that I really should be feeding this beast of a debate.. heheh. *cough*
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Hot Pastrami! Last edited by hot_pastrami; 03-15-2004 at 01:34 PM. |
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03-15-2004, 01:32 PM | #117 | |
Come on, cat.
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And again, she did't kill the fetus (by refusing surgery), the fetus was unable to survive to term inside the womb.
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03-15-2004, 01:34 PM | #118 | |
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if there WAS no doctor available, natural selection would not have selcted that child for survival. sucks, but that's the deal.
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03-15-2004, 01:38 PM | #119 | ||
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"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~ "The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It" |
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03-15-2004, 01:40 PM | #120 |
still eats dirt
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Because different terms are incorrect. It is a fetus. That is the correct term.
Just to make it more fun, lets call 'em "human beings" regardless if they exist in the womb, are a larva, pupae, worm, adult, whatever. And again, she did't kill the fetus (by refusing surgery), the fetus was unable to survive to term inside the womb. I like this logic. "That man drowned when he fell in the water! Why didn't you jump in and save him?" "Eh, sorry -- he just couldn't survive once in the water." That, right there, is some outstanding natural law: The ability to survive on your own! |
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