Iraq by the Numbers - or how to be dumb. - Page 8

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-05-2007, 10:10 PM

Well, lad, there's the most visible difference between thee and me. I read ST at thirteen and found it seminal. I've lived my life through an understanding of The Heinlein Lecture. The guy's thinking is libertarian, you know... check out Tramp Royale sometime for his views on visas, passports, and general ID paperwork and paper shuffling.

The other most visible difference between thee and me, were I to post a barechested pic like you did, is I've got more hair on my chest and less on my head -- unless you count the part around my jaws. :p

Ibby · 02-05-2007, 10:12 PM

I read it at twelve (and thrice since then, and actually at this very moment reading it again) and thought it was a damn good read, but not a damn good political philosophy.

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-05-2007, 10:24 PM

Mmm, this may be. It certainly hasn't been tried out in the form laid out in the book, but that's true of most social science fiction. The particular clue that it's a libertarian global societal setting is that line of Rico senior's: "Laws are few."

Hippikos · 02-06-2007, 03:40 AM

In ST Heinlein glorifies militarism in an almost apostolic way. Truth is that war is dirty and there's nothing apostolic about it. But then again it's (Science) Fiction, no real blood running, no dismembered bodies, no teared up skulls with scattered brains.

I can imagine that one loves the book at the age of 13, but with the years wisdom and reality should replace idealism and fantasy. I'm afraid you got stuck at that age.

South America, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Mogadishu, Iraq, Afghanistan show how reality is.

And I've said it before, the White House foreign politics have nothing to do with Starship Trooper mentality, but everything with influence and energy sources. So, dream on Professor, dream on...

Ronald Cherrycoke · 02-07-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippikos

So, Vietnam abandonned communism after all, even without the US. Isn't that a pity of the 2 Mio deaths (plus another 1,5 Mio in Laos and Cambodia) for trying to force it from the outside? Same what´s now happening in Iraq (1000 Iraqi's killed this week alone) and might be happening in Iran?

As usual the only thing the US is learning from history that it's not learning from history.

Where do you get those death figures?

Hippikos · 02-08-2007, 05:37 AM

Too lazy to find yourself? Like here..

Aliantha · 02-08-2007, 05:39 AM

Hip, you might need a better link than that one. Even Wiki has a warning on that one.

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-10-2007, 03:03 AM

Hippikos, running through everything Heinlein wrote is what might be called The Heinlein Lecture, as evident in ST as in anything else. I respond to the wisdom in The Heinlein Lecture very well. If you can't... well, I can't help you. God couldn't help you.

Having both read Starship Troopers and served two hitches in the military, I find what Heinlein has to say about military service to be quite real, and quite wise -- they compare well. Yattering about "glorifying" the military is mere dronespeak, of nil value. People who've done military, thus committing a portion (or even the entirety) of their lives to the protection of their societies, do not speak as you do, Hippikos.

There are the people who get Heinlein, and there are the groundlings. All I can suggest is more exposure. You'll still be you, Hipp, and not become me -- you'll just be smarter or wiser, is all.

Ronald Cherrycoke · 02-10-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Too lazy to find yourself? Like here..

~2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Killed (The Vietnam's Ministry of Labor, War Invalids and Social Affairs released figures on April 3, 1995 claimed that nearly 2 million civilians in the north and 2 million in the south were killed between 1954 and 1975.

Yeah these people are well know for telling the truth....Haaaaaa....Haaaaa...

Hippikos · 02-10-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Cherrycoke

~2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Killed (The Vietnam's Ministry of Labor, War Invalids and Social Affairs released figures on April 3, 1995 claimed that nearly 2 million civilians in the north and 2 million in the south were killed between 1954 and 1975.

Yeah these people are well know for telling the truth....Haaaaaa....Haaaaa...

Yeah, and you believe McNamara, Kissinger, Nixon, Westmoreland?

Like in Iraq, the US knows exactly how many US soldiers died in Vietnam, but Vietnamese casualties never have been fully archived, 1,5, 2 or 4 Mio, who knows, who carez...

Ronald Cherrycoke · 02-10-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Yeah, and you believe McNamara, Kissinger, Nixon, Westmoreland?

Like in Iraq, the US knows exactly how many US soldiers died in Vietnam, but Vietnamese casualties never have been fully archived, 1,5, 2 or 4 Mio, who knows, who carez...

Yep...the North Vietnamese were always truthful...like keeping their bargains from the Paris Peace Talks?

richlevy · 02-11-2007, 12:37 AM

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-11-2007, 12:55 AM

Hey, in Vietnam the Communists committed many atrocities. In and out of the cities.

This is only news, or seems news, to certain people.

piercehawkeye45 · 02-11-2007, 01:36 AM

In Vietnam, America was actually fighting against someone instead of sitting in the middle...

02-11-2007, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Well, lad, there's the most visible difference between thee and me. I read ST at thirteen and found it seminal. I've lived my life through an understanding of The Heinlein Lecture. The guy's thinking is libertarian, you know... check out Tramp Royale sometime for his views on visas, passports, and general ID paperwork and paper shuffling.

The other most visible difference between thee and me, were I to post a barechested pic like you did, is I've got more hair on my chest and less on my head -- unless you count the part around my jaws. :p

I've read everything he published... it took me a very long time to find it all and read it. Changed me. ST is a great story, there are several more with a similar theme, some more poetic and subtle.
I too felt that places like Portugal have it right... two years compensatory service should be the way, end of story. Freedom is not free.
Don't want to kill? Conscientious objectors get to be in support jobs, there are plenty of them.
BTW, I tried to serve, arthritis kept me out.

I have also read all of Louis L'Amour's work. Another great American Storyteller.

02-05-2007, 10:10 PM	#106
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Well, lad, there's the most visible difference between thee and me. I read ST at thirteen and found it seminal. I've lived my life through an understanding of The Heinlein Lecture. The guy's thinking is libertarian, you know... check out Tramp Royale sometime for his views on visas, passports, and general ID paperwork and paper shuffling. The other most visible difference between thee and me, were I to post a barechested pic like you did, is I've got more hair on my chest and less on my head -- unless you count the part around my jaws. :p __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

02-05-2007, 10:12 PM	#107
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I read it at twelve (and thrice since then, and actually at this very moment reading it again) and thought it was a damn good read, but not a damn good political philosophy. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

02-05-2007, 10:24 PM	#108
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Mmm, this may be. It certainly hasn't been tried out in the form laid out in the book, but that's true of most social science fiction. The particular clue that it's a libertarian global societal setting is that line of Rico senior's: "Laws are few." __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

02-06-2007, 03:40 AM	#109
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	In ST Heinlein glorifies militarism in an almost apostolic way. Truth is that war is dirty and there's nothing apostolic about it. But then again it's (Science) Fiction, no real blood running, no dismembered bodies, no teared up skulls with scattered brains. I can imagine that one loves the book at the age of 13, but with the years wisdom and reality should replace idealism and fantasy. I'm afraid you got stuck at that age. South America, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Mogadishu, Iraq, Afghanistan show how reality is. And I've said it before, the White House foreign politics have nothing to do with Starship Trooper mentality, but everything with influence and energy sources. So, dream on Professor, dream on... __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

02-08-2007, 05:37 AM	#111
Hippikos Flocci Non Facio Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In The Line Of Fire Posts: 571	Too lazy to find yourself? Like here.. __________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

02-08-2007, 05:39 AM	#112
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Hip, you might need a better link than that one. Even Wiki has a warning on that one. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-10-2007, 03:03 AM	#113
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Hippikos, running through everything Heinlein wrote is what might be called The Heinlein Lecture, as evident in ST as in anything else. I respond to the wisdom in The Heinlein Lecture very well. If you can't... well, I can't help you. God couldn't help you. Having both read Starship Troopers and served two hitches in the military, I find what Heinlein has to say about military service to be quite real, and quite wise -- they compare well. Yattering about "glorifying" the military is mere dronespeak, of nil value. People who've done military, thus committing a portion (or even the entirety) of their lives to the protection of their societies, do not speak as you do, Hippikos. There are the people who get Heinlein, and there are the groundlings. All I can suggest is more exposure. You'll still be you, Hipp, and not become me -- you'll just be smarter or wiser, is all. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 02-10-2007 at 03:09 AM.

02-11-2007, 12:37 AM	#117
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	The difference between Vietnam and Iraq __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

02-11-2007, 12:55 AM	#118
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Hey, in Vietnam the Communists committed many atrocities. In and out of the cities. This is only news, or seems news, to certain people. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

02-11-2007, 01:36 AM	#119
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	In Vietnam, America was actually fighting against someone instead of sitting in the middle...

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