Everything you ever wanted to know about British politics but were afraid to ask...

[Cyclefrance]

... not that John prescott is taking that much interest

He failed to attend the first two meetings of the Govt emergency response committee anyway, and John Reid (Home Secretary ) is the one whose been asked to delay HIS holiday until Blair returns.

Prescott is said to be 'incandscent with rage' at accusations he is being sidelined - well I suppose that's something...

[DanaC]

Immigration is still out of control and now we are warned that with the growing number of immigrants, the increased demand for services (benefits) to which they are entitled will cause local taxes (council tax) to rise for those that work and pay their tax bills.

Of course the fact that at a national level, immigrants on average bring in more tax than is spent supporting them, is conventiently left out of these reports. As is the fact that we passed a variety of laws preventing Asylum Seekers from engaging in paying (and tax paying) work until they get status. We'll let em work for charities of course.

The whole thing has been whipped up out of all proportion. The media loves a good scandal and nothing gets the great british public as excited as a good solid reason, to noisily hate outsiders. Politicians of either side of the divide, know this and pander to it.

Three days ago I was delivering leaflets in my ward (advertising a streetsurgery) and I was stopped by a lady in her mid to late 70s. She informed me that she wouldn't be voting labour any more cause we are letting in too many foreigners.

"Its not right," she said, "People gettin their bags nicked by bloody kosovans."

"Oh," says I, "That's awful, did you have your bag stolen then?"

A pause...."No, not me, but I know people who have"

another pause, "an the police told us. They said. there's a gang of em snatchin handbags in Town. Kosovans."

"Oh, that really bad, "I said, "and they're definaterly Kosovan?"

"An anyways, there's too many of em. I went into town and I could hear 'em jabberin away. It gets to where you feel like you're the only one speakin english."

" Really?" I said, "Now that surprises me. I mean, I go in town qute a lot and, yeah I've heard a few people speakin in some Eastern Eurpoean language but only ever a few. Most people are usually speakin English. Maybe I'm goin in at the wrong times."

"And there's always trouble. Them lot down parkinson lane. (Note: we have now moved on from Kosovans to the resident Pakistani and Afghan community) Always avin riots and causin trouble. All that anti-social behaviour"

I nod sympathetically and say yes, it is a bit of a worry, but then again we have quite a few problems with the youngsters in this area too. Anti social behaviour and gang violence.

"There's a gang down by that shop. I've seen them just hangin about intimidating older people as they go in. Maybe it's a lack of respect amongst younger people of both our communities?"

"Yeah well," She gets to the nub of her argument, "I don't like em. There's too many. I'm not racist, I just don't like em and thats that."

At this point I figured I had wasted enough time exploring the nature of racism and politely made my exit, giving her my card and telling her if she had any problems or issues to raise with the council, just give me a call.

What i find interesting about this is : there was a time that woman's view would have been called racist. Any politician pandering to the 'I just don't like 'em' argument, would have been accused of playing the race card.

Now, we are told by every one in politics, government and the media thatg this woman's opinion should be heard. That's fine, but it seems that now her opinion is the only one that really matters when it comes to immigration.The whole political spectrum is falling over itself to reassure that woman that it isn't racist to dislike an entire people. That it's normal, to be expected and therefore right to view newcomers with mistrust and dislike.

[Cyclefrance]

Misconception is one element of a many tentacled problem. Will try to elaborate.

You know when you fill a bath up how everything is OK so long as the water is contained, but if you don't control it and it spills over the top then suddenly you don't have just one result (an overfull bath) unless you are quick enough to deal with the problem, you have the many consequences that this overflowing causes - the ceiling collapses below, the carpets are ruined as are the decorations, the water gets into every nook and cranny causing mould and mildew to proliferate, it may even get inside cupboards containing clothes or food - the list goes on.

This is the problem with so many of our governments half-hearted initiatives. The consequences are never thought through or accounted for and so necessary protective measures aren't put in place.

So it's not just about crime. There's the 'lump' issue with building labour, immigrants being paid lower wages than anyone else which causes them to need extra financial help. The uncontrolled situation also means that there is insufficient planning of resources to deal with these various consequences and the strain that this puts upon the resources that are available be they human or otherwise. The whole system creaks and breaks down.

The immigrants themselves become disillusioned. The overall effect that this lack of control has on the rest of society breeds the intolerance and misconception that follows. Whether we like it to admit it or not religious fundamentalism is also in there somewhere.

Very few people would bear a grudge against people who are trying honestly to better their lot - we all want to do the same, but our lack of proper arrangements causes the imbalances that generate the many problems that continue to arise - we end up letting the immigrants down as much as they put a strain on our resources. We, like any other country have a limited capacity to accommodate - until now this, and the consequences of exceeding this capacity, has been totally ignored. As you say comments that would have been considered racist are now given licence - but it isn't really the racist part that's at the heart of the problem - that's just another one of those consequences.

Our government predicted 15,000 east European immigrants would come here in a year as a result of EU expansion - we actiually recorded 400,000 we know about, plus we don't know how many extra there are that slipped the net as a result of being self-employed, students or other category that isn't recorded. With that sort of inaccuracy how can we expect to have a balanced situation?

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

The immigrants themselves become disillusioned. The overall effect that this lack of control has on the rest of society breeds the intolerance and misconception that follows. Whether we like it to admit it or not religious fundamentalism is also in there somewhere.

The evidence seems to be that immigrants choose to come here, and do their best to assimilate. It's the next generations that feel isolated and disillusioned.

[DanaC]

I understand all that Cycle.....but here's my point:
The ward I represent doesn't have a large immigrant population. Most of the people in the ward can go weeks or months at a time and not see anybody who isn't white-British. The town as a whole has had a very small influx of eastern Europeans. Very small. Yet they are seen as the problem.

The far right have whipped people up to the point where they fear for their culture. This has been possible because of the constant coverage in the press of the 'immigration and asylum problem'.

You have the figures to show how many people came into the country......do you also have the figures to show how many left? How many who arrived in that first influx, who got so disillusioned that they returned to their country of origin?

Incidentally, those immigrants coming in from the accession countries, are not entitled to any assistance (eg, income support, housing benefit etc) unless they have worked for 12 months first. Most of them have no access to medical care even when they have children.

The problem isn't how much they cost .....we're not footing the bill, nobody is. The problem is that we end up with a large homeless population and a bunch of uncared for people. Meanwhile we characterise them as being a drain on our resources.....yet we channel little if any resources their way.

The worst part of it is that they end up as victims. What's sad is that we see them as a cause and not victims of the problem. If you've any doubts about that, come spend an evening in Halifax and listen to the jokes the pub comedians tell.

The religious side of it, in my opinion cannot be viewed in isolation from our current foreign policy.

[Cyclefrance]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

The evidence seems to be that immigrants choose to come here, and do their best to assimilate. It's the next generations that feel isolated and disillusioned.

Don't necessarily disagree with you, that's why I said it's in there somewhere. I don't know enough to say what drives individuals to take such an opposite path - it could be a mix of many things - isolation, lack of opportunity, peer pressure, disillusionment, vulnerability, identity - probably more you could add to that list.

I think that's the real problem behind what's happening - that when the system overloads, there are so many consequences it is easy to be drawn in different directions seeking to cure what are individual symptoms of a much bigger and underlying problem. Until that is cured and under control its effects will continue to generate more issues.

[DanaC]

I do think the fact that our political landscape has shifted to the right in recent years is also a factor. People are less tolerant than they were. They were becoming less tolerant long before the debacle over the accession countries. Before the kosovans came the 'bogus asylum seekers'. This was being reported as a problem way before it actually was a problem. This isn't a response to high numbers of immigrants, it predates the high numbers by a decade.

[Cyclefrance]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I understand all that Cycle.....but here's my point:
The ward I represent doesn't have a large immigrant population. Most of the people in the ward can go weeks or months at a time and not see anybody who isn't white-British. The town as a whole has had a very small influx of eastern Europeans. Very small. Yet they are seen as the problem.

The far right have whipped people up to the point where they fear for their culture. This has been possible because of the constant coverage in the press of the 'immigration and asylum problem'.

You have the figures to show how many people came into the country......do you also have the figures to show how many left? How many who arrived in that first influx, who got so disillusioned that they returned to their country of origin?

Incidentally, those immigrants coming in from the accession countries, are not entitled to any assistance (eg, income support, housing benefit etc) unless they have worked for 12 months first. Most of them have no access to medical care even when they have children.

The problem isn't how much they cost .....we're not footing the bill, nobody is. The problem is that we end up with a large homeless population and a bunch of uncared for people. Meanwhile we characterise them as being a drain on our resources.....yet we channel little if any resources their way.

The worst part of it is that they end up as victims. What's sad is that we see them as a cause and not victims of the problem. If you've any doubts about that, come spend an evening in Halifax and listen to the jokes the pub comedians tell.

The religious side of it, in my opinion cannot be viewed in isolation from our current foreign policy.

I think there is a lot of disillusionment all round and as I said earlier and agree with you in the majority of cases the immigrant is the victim.

Sadly, disillusionment is not selective and so it also spreads to the resident population. Most of those affected on both sides will see this for what it is - bad management of the system - others will quit the country (both immigrants and nationals), and some will rebel. As with the bath water analogy, it is the small amount that goes over the top that causes the most damage - their activity makes the news and is read/seen by the majority with the risk that their view then becomes skewed!

[Cyclefrance]

So, David Cameron is back from his hols and the floral shorts are banished to the wardrobe for another year. He must be feeling refreshed (or at least has woken up) as he decide to say something about the terrorist situation.

Having missed the opportunity to respond at the height of the crisis, though, he had to resort to criticising the lack of attention and resources given by the government to fight the threat in the first place. Not quite the damaging body blow one might expect from the leading opposition party, but then he has after all only just woken up and is probably feeling a bit jet-lagged anyway.

Maybe something a little stronger next week...?

[Cyclefrance]

A couple of political cartoons about the time of the Israeli/Lebanon war and then Airport terrorist alert:

.

[Cyclefrance]

Anyone wondering where all the UK National Health Service (NHS) money is going need look little further than here - we have something called PFIs (Private Finance Initiatives) - seems the government has blurred the original objective as these deals now seem to leave the customers (in one case - and the major player - the NHS) with 30+ years of debt that can see the original cost spiral out of control - it seems that quite a few hospital projects have been shelved but the finance cost for these white elephants remains a burden on the NHS.

Well worth reading the articles on the link - shows just how sick the intended source for a cure (the NHS) has become...

[Cyclefrance]

Seems those figures for immigrants from Europe were wrong - not 400,000 at all. Revised figure is 600,000 - probably means the true figure is nearer 1.2 million...

Any advances...?

[DanaC]

Have you checked how many of those were/are self-employed? How many are claiming benefits? How many are paying tax? How many are creating, rather than taking jobs?

Britain has an ageing population. We need young, healthy workers to migrate here. Most of the workers coming in from countries like Bulgaria and Romania, are young and contributing more than than they take from the system.

[Cyclefrance]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Have you checked how many of those were/are self-employed? How many are claiming benefits? How many are paying tax? How many are creating, rather than taking jobs?

Britain has an ageing population. We need young, healthy workers to migrate here. Most of the workers coming in from countries like Bulgaria and Romania, are young and contributing more than than they take from the system.

Agree about need for young healthy workers, but what we don't want is to create a situation where the opportunities for both home-grown and imported labour is so poor that this breeds insecurity, dis-illusion and rebellion.

It's the lack of control and awareness that our government seems to display that gives cause for concern. McNulty is one of the most inept ministers I have ever come across - he comes a close second to Prescott - yet he continues to enjoy media attentioon and spokesman status. The numbers of self-employed, etc that you want seem not to be available so we get stabs in the dark from the likes of McNulty (he being the one who claimed that only 400 Polish plumbers had ever come to London, as late as just a few months ago).

I thought that Mc Nulty had been moved away from immigration anyway - wasn't he swapped for a brighter individual, and given a job on the police and crime agenda? Seems he's back in immigration again, judging by the above.

My comment about 1.2 million may seem a little cynical, but it's there to emphasise the lack of credibility and trust in government figures and reporting. I have no problem with sensible immigration but I do share the concerns of many that an ongoing free-for-all policy will bring more problems than solutions.

[Cyclefrance]

The UK population has passed 60 million with most of the growth being in the last 10 years. An open door policy from the government probably helped:

.