Immigration

This is where an intelligent Brazil says "Fuck you" and deals with other nations. It ain't hard.
So tired of people blaming the Gap for the clothes they are wearing... don't like em', don't shop there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

This is where an intelligent Brazil says "Fuck you" and deals with other nations. It ain't hard.
So tired of people blaming the Gap for the clothes they are wearing... don't like em', don't shop there.

Brazil was one of so many countries loudly saying "FU" to US and France. The problem is that we are dumping agricultural products on the world thereby destroying jobs in those countries. We are so ignorant of what our 'bought and paid for' politician do that we don't even know about the 54% tariff on methanol.

I would guess that virtually every lurker here never heard of that 54% tariff - but heard repeatedly how illegal immigrants would become mass murdering terrorists. Somehow the reality is little known and the fears are widely publicized.

No wonder America would put up useless walls -cure a symptom - rather than address the problem. Too many want solutions without first learning what the problem really is. How many lurkers knew about Cancun long before reading about it here? Again demonstrates 'casting blame before learning of reality'.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by tw

The problem is that we are dumping agricultural products on the world thereby destroying jobs in those countries.

Where in the world did you come up with THAT??? I live in the San Joaquin Valley, one of the most prolific food-producing areas in the world, and all we ever hear is how impossible it is for us to export foodstuffs to ANY country. Hell, California produces so many tons of garlic that they even have a festival in Gilroy, so we IMPORT garlic from China, that is how screwed up our balance of trade is in favor of the OTHER guys. The only meaningful food exports from this country are wheat and corn, which it seems that Russia and the former Communist Block countries can't get enough of, but otherwise OUR farmers compete against cheaper imports from everywhere else. WE have to obey sanitation and environmental and employer laws while the competition grows their stuff in sewage, does not get inspected, and uses slave labor. TW, you are from CA also, how in the world could you make a statement like that one???

Originally Posted by Tonchi

Where in the world did you come up with THAT??? I live in the San Joaquin Valley, one of the most prolific food-producing areas in the world, and all we ever hear is how impossible it is for us to export foodstuffs to ANY country. Hell, California produces so many tons of garlic that they even have a festival in Gilroy, so we IMPORT garlic from China, that is how screwed up our balance of trade is in favor of the OTHER guys. The only meaningful food exports from this country are wheat and corn, which it seems that Russia and the former Communist Block countries can't get enough of, but otherwise OUR farmers compete against cheaper imports from everywhere else. WE have to obey sanitation and environmental and employer laws while the competition grows their stuff in sewage, does not get inspected, and uses slave labor. TW, you are from CA also, how in the world could you make a statement like that one???

Exactly, you have to look very hard now to find pure FL OJ and try to find US electronics... why? Because foreign markets have done here what TW says we are doing elsewhere, a myth. Cheap foreign goods hurt the US, not the other way around.
Find a factory producing something in the US other than on a nominal level... try it.
Yeah, they just eat-up US made cars, cheese, electronics, and every thing else other than music, jeans (oh... that's right, we don't make those any more) and movies...sure... sell us on that typing on your PC made where, on a chair made where, furniture made where, in clothes made where, listening to music packaged where, being lit by lights made where...? It's a FLOOOD of US goods!!!

What does this have to do with illegals in this nation?
Not a damn thing.
They are ILLEGAL... so, they should get a visa or get out. It is not complicated.
All of this is the same crap as "his momma spanked him so it ain't his fault he robbed the Circle K and killed that poor lady"...
It's a "look over here" tactic and is just silly.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

They are ILLEGAL... so, they should get a visa or get out. It is not complicated.

No, its not complicated. It just takes years to get a visa. It requires spending massive sums on lawyers because even the immigration forms are incomprehensible. They and their employers need those jobs filled now. As Nebraska demonstrated, once we start demanding this 'get a visa' nonsense without fixing a defective (and restricted) system, then that region of Nebraska went into recession.

You have a problem with illegals? Then your next post would demand we start with defective American immigration laws. Blaming the victim never solved problems.

Want to fix the visa problem? Start by eliminating nonsense quotas. But that would require political balls. Better to do as Nebraska did. Kick the feds out and employ more illegals. Again a problem that exists, in part, because American laws are defective. So instead we blame the victims. It is easier.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

I live in the San Joaquin Valley, one of the most prolific food-producing areas in the world, and all we ever hear is how impossible it is for us to export foodstuffs to ANY country.

Every industry always makes complaints about how difficult it is to stay in business. It helped even during labor contract negotiations. That does not make it true. It’s too often nothing more than propaganda.

Meanwhile, tell us about what happened in Cancun. Tell us why the Doha round has missed another milestone. Where did I come up with that? I am simply repeating what virtually every nation in the world complained about so loudly as to walk out of an international conference three days early - in mass. This in part so that you would even learn how unfair they consider US trading practices. Why would they all walk out if America (and France) were not subverting these jobs throughout the world? Or maybe did you never learn about Cancun?

I don't give much credence to industries that are always crying unfair competition. If they cannot compete without government support, then they should move out. Curious. They would move to where Jose Mexicana desperately needs a job. Illegal immigration solved.

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

Our borders are as secure as they ever were. Any insecurity is Rush Limbaugh spin.

If you think for one minute that ignoring reasons for this problem will make our borders any safer, then you also believed the McNamara line defended S Vietnam. As Federal agent friends said, even the war on drugs was a myth. No matter how many agents, soldiers, Coast Guard cutters, and even nuclear subs; there was no significant reduction drug trafficking. Why? We used a big gun and big wall strategy to solve symptoms rather than address the problem.

What makes borders secure? Address the reason for problems; not solve a problem foolishly with big guns and big walls.

We don't have a border security problem - anymore than we did 30 years ago. What we have is denial that is only making illegal immigration necessary. The minute we start hyping fear of unsecured borders, then I know someone is being led by the nose (sound byte spin) rather than first asking some embarrassing simple questions. Spin doctors are hyping the 'unsecured border' hype so that you will not think logically.

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

Our borders today are as unsecured as they were every decade previously. Why is that suddenly a problem? Do we cure symptoms - with simple minded solutions such as big walls and big guns? Or do we instead use intelligence to address the real problem?

BTW, what is the only way to have secure borders? Good, reliable, close friends on that border. I don’t see those who worry about ‘unsecure borders’ even for one minute talking about THE best source of secure borders. They hype big walls and big guns; a ‘big dic’ mentality that absolutely ignores the most significant reason for secure borders.

Originally Posted by tw

Our borders are as secure as they ever were. Any insecurity is Rush Limbaugh spin.

If you think for one minute that ignoring reasons for this problem will make our borders any safer, then you also believed the McNamara line defended S Vietnam. As Federal agent friends said, even the war on drugs was a myth. No matter how many agents, soldiers, Coast Guard cutters, and even nuclear subs; there was no significant reduction drug trafficking. Why? We used a big gun and big wall strategy to solve symptoms rather than address the problem.

What makes borders secure? Address the reason for problems; not solve a problem foolishly with big guns and big walls.

We don't have a border security problem - anymore than we did 30 years ago. What we have is denial that is only making illegal immigration necessary. The minute we start hyping fear of unsecured borders, then I know someone is being led by the nose (sound byte spin) rather than first asking some embarrassing simple questions. Spin doctors are hyping the 'unsecured border' hype so that you will not think logically.

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

Our borders today are as unsecured as they were every decade previously. Why is that suddenly a problem? Do we cure symptoms - with simple minded solutions such as big walls and big guns? Or do we instead use intelligence to address the real problem?

BTW, what is the only way to have secure borders? Good, reliable, close friends on that border. I don’t see those who worry about ‘unsecure borders’ even for one minute talking about THE best source of secure borders. They hype big walls and big guns; a ‘big dic’ mentality that absolutely ignores the most significant reason for secure borders.

We have always had lax border/immigration security, it is just time to fix it. Thanks for bringing that up and making the point as well.
Have too many illegal immigrants or illegals we don't want, hell illegals at all? We have a border problem. It ain't hard, and security is the first thing we need to worry about... relations are something we only have control over 1/2 of.

[xoxoxoBruce]

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

No, no, no. You want proof? 11 M I L L I O N illegal aliens...at least. Nobody here is saying we are in danger of bombing or raping or they are dangerous..... except you.

Once more with feeling, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE...period.

Is that clear enough? The reasons they are here are myriad and complex as you have stated, I think properly, ad infinitum. One of them being the Beef producers that are making a bundle off of them.

BUT, the fact remains, they are not supposed to be here.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, no, no. You want proof? 11 M I L L I O N illegal aliens...at least.

11 million productive people who would not be illegal if we started by fixing defective American laws - such as self serving, politically inspired, immigration quotas.

No their not suppose to be here. No, we are no supposed to give any corporate welfare to sugar, corn, cotton, and so many other agricultural industries. And no, America should not be dumping these crops on other nations thereby destroying overseas jobs. Finally, America that says oil prices are too high should not put a 54% tariff on Brazilian methanol. But then illegal immigration is being hyped as if it were the only problem AND that nothing we have done created that problem.

11 million would not be here if they could be doing those jobs at home – if America was a free trading nation in a spirit that has somehow gotten lost.

Why do you blame illegals for problem WE have created?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

I seem to recall that we import a lot more than we export ... given this, folks should be staying in their home countries in droves to make more money off of us.

[b]Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla
NoBoxes, welcome to the club of "I've taken tw's measure, and he sucks bong water and eats his dandruff,"

Originally Posted by tw
Noboxes - learn to post logically or we will have to discuss the penis hanging below your mother.

*Whether I praise, agree with, disagree with; or, criticize someone who posts here, I prefer to do it in an educated language.*

People with my formal training and experience in antiterrorism and counterterrorism are not likely to draw all the conclusions that tw has.

Those, like me, who have held a security clearance and accessed restricted information, refrain from drawing conclusions on controversial subjects to the degree of certainty that tw does when all they are working from is open sources.

People with my background realize that there are real needs and perceived needs and that more conflicts today result from disputes over perceived needs (ideologies - political, economic, social ... etc.) than from disputes over real needs (e.g. water, food, shelter ... etc.).

It is my opinion that tw's efforts to dispel the perceived needs that cause our actions to hinder our progress is a worthy endeavor. It is also my opinion that just enough of tw's conclusions are so seriously flawed as to make tw ineffective in that role. tw now only serves as entertainment for me; BUT HEY, THAT'S WHAT I CAME TO THE CELLAR FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE! I certainly didn't come here to solve the problems of the world.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I certainly didn't come here to solve the problems of the world.

What? Why you bastard, you killed Kenny, didn't you?

[tw]

Originally Posted by NoBoxes

Those, like me, who have held a security clearance and accessed restricted information, refrain from drawing conclusions on controversial subjects

A dirty little secret. I also had those security clearances. So what? Does that make me a genius? Not for one minute. It just meant I was going stuff I don't talk about.