Seems somebody at the Miami Herald wants you dead - Page 8

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

You think it's the Liberals' fault, even though conservative policy ensures that more guns are accessable to general public, for criminals to use? Wow, that's some logic you have going on, Maggie.

I know why you can't draw the conclusion, given the obstacles placed in the way of felons possessing arms, that there are thus more guns for YOU to use on the criminals. With due care, of course.

But I do understand why you CANNOT THINK THAT.

You are a fully florid hoplophobe, and without professional help, you shall never have a rational view of armed defense of self or other. You shall remain unable to practice either, which would seem morally insupportable -- though too, I just hate bullies, criminals being a prime example of bullying. You need to adjust to your urge to kill, and release and exhaust from you the buried rages and fears that give you that urge.

In a nutshell, Spexx needs therapy, target practice, and tactical practice, along with introduction to tactical shooting games as a means of directly discharging his urge to kill. Until he gets this help, his moral position remains inferior to those of MaggieL, rkzenrage, and Urbane Guerrilla.

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 09:11 PM

In my opinion, and this opinion is derived from my upbringing and lifestyle; there's a time and place for weapons. I'm not unfamiliar with guns. Have fired many. Even into animals on occasion, so I'm not some liberal whiner who has no concept of the point of guns.

I like the fact that people in Australia are not allowed to carry weapons - of any kind (including knives) - legally in public. I don't believe that if all people are armed you're lowering the chances of gun related violence. I don't believe you're increasing it either although accessability has to make it easier for crimes of passion to be more deadly and also for children - the original topic of this thread - to access adult's weapons.

It's not the responsibility of the general public to protect the rest of the general public. It's the responsibility of police and other law enforcement agencies to do to. Obviously there can't always be a cop around, and even if there is people will still shoot people.

I don't think liberals or conservatives are to blame for school shootings. I think the people that committed the crimes are responsible.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

In my opinion, and this opinion is derived from my upbringing and lifestyle. . .

It's not the responsibility of the general public to protect the rest of the general public. It's the responsibility of police and other law enforcement agencies to do to. Obviously there can't always be a cop around, and even if there is people will still shoot people.

Reread that paragraph, Aliantha: can you not see how the last sentence shoots the first two down? (I should smile!)

We in this Republic take precisely the opposite view -- that it is part of a citizen's lawful militia powers, which rise out of his being an adult human, and which are to some degree demanded by this Republic's laws (Sec's 310-311 USC, which establish the legal existence of the US Militia, all as part of the concept of a citizen Army), and that a citizen of a Republic has a responsibility to defend against the society-destroying acts of any criminals, without any regard to their degree of violence. While it is helpful to have a professional, sworn police force to do this work well, it is not at all bad to have the amateurs hold the line until the pros can reinforce them. Obviously there can't always be a cop around -- there is NO moral requirement to be helpless before armed agression in that circumstance. Do not ask that we not shoot back. We have wives and children to keep alive, woman! Some of us have husbands!

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 09:31 PM

ahuh...and you live in a country with one of the highest crime rates in the world. No wonder you want to be armed.

MaggieL · 10-25-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

You mean a link like this, that you posted, presumably so that we could READ THE LAWS? Check your links and sources before you post them.

OK, we've at least actually gotten you to load the page. This is progress.

Now let's refine the skill to actually include reading.

This is called the World Wide Web. Let me explain how it works.
Those blue headings with the underscores? They are called "unvisited links".

In this case, when you click on them they each take you a pages containing a different section of Chapter 5 (General Principles of Justification) of Title 18(Crimes and Offenses), which is the law in question. It's all there.

The ones you're looking for look like this:

Quote:

CHAPTER 5. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF JUSTIFICATION

§ 501. Definitions.
§ 502. Justification a defense.
§ 503. Justification generally.
§ 504. Execution of public duty.
§ 505. Use of force in self-protection.
§ 506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.
§ 507. Use of force for the protection of property.
§ 508. Use of force in law enforcement.
§ 509. Use of force by persons with special responsibility for care, discipline or safety of others.
§ 510. Justification in property crimes.

Taken together, sections 500 through 510 constitute Chapter 5 of Title 18, which is the actual law on justification of the use of deadly force in the Commonwealth.

Now go back to the page and read, and do try to restrain your impulse to click the mouse spasmodically in random locations without actually reading the page and then returning here in triumph claiming that the link is bogus.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

ahuh...and you live in a country with one of the highest crime rates in the world. No wonder you want to be armed.

You would, too, and probably do a most creditable job of it, given your experience.

It's also a matter of record that for some years, Scotland's murder rate (murders/100K of population is the usual measure) under UK gun laws, ran well over the overall US rate of 4.8/100K/year. The US murder rate is not at all uniform, either. All the more rural states have murder rates that look like England's. What brings the US's rate up to its sub-Scotland level is the murder rate of a few ghetto-ridden urban areas: the inner cities of New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles.

And you shouldn't be speaking of "crime" generally if it's the murder rate you are addressing. We citizens save, year in and year out, about 2.5 billion dollars US, by the mere act of sticking guns into criminal faces. Don't ask us to lose 2.5B just to satisfy your notions of propriety, Aliantha!

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 10:12 PM

I wasn't addressing the murder rate. If I was addressing that then I would have said so. I was addressing the crime rate UG, that's why I said, crime rate.

As to the saving 2.5B. Presumably the goods will be remaining in the US after they're stolen anyway, so you'll still have them (if stopping robberies by threatening theives with a gun is what you were trying to imply). They've just been reappropriated. lol

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 10:13 PM

OK...sorry, I shouldn't have laughed. This is a serious subject, but you just crack me up sometimes UG.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 10:16 PM

That's 2.5B of wrongs not committed, Ali -- nothing to sneeze at, is it?

We can at least estimate an economic value to self defense. I don't think that's been even semiseriously attempted before.

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 10:18 PM

No, it's wonderful UG. I'm very pleased your happy.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 10:40 PM

Erm... you're very pleased my happy? Quick, edit!

Quote:

I'm very pleased your happy.

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 10:42 PM

you're then. I'm sorry I can't type everything perfectly every time.

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-25-2006, 10:53 PM

If my Backspace key ever breaks, I might as well be typing encrypted. :rolleye:

Aliantha · 10-25-2006, 10:58 PM

lol...well I'm pretty sure most of us use that facility fairly regularly, except maybe the perfect ones among us.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-29-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Concur. Remeber that in drug-related violent crime, sometimes the drug is testosterone.

Peer pressure is not a drug.
As for testosterone, what?.... are the girls wearing patches? They are just as violent in the Gangsta culture although the usually would rather cut than shoot.

10-25-2006, 09:11 PM	#107
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	In my opinion, and this opinion is derived from my upbringing and lifestyle; there's a time and place for weapons. I'm not unfamiliar with guns. Have fired many. Even into animals on occasion, so I'm not some liberal whiner who has no concept of the point of guns. I like the fact that people in Australia are not allowed to carry weapons - of any kind (including knives) - legally in public. I don't believe that if all people are armed you're lowering the chances of gun related violence. I don't believe you're increasing it either although accessability has to make it easier for crimes of passion to be more deadly and also for children - the original topic of this thread - to access adult's weapons. It's not the responsibility of the general public to protect the rest of the general public. It's the responsibility of police and other law enforcement agencies to do to. Obviously there can't always be a cop around, and even if there is people will still shoot people. I don't think liberals or conservatives are to blame for school shootings. I think the people that committed the crimes are responsible. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 09:31 PM	#109
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	ahuh...and you live in a country with one of the highest crime rates in the world. No wonder you want to be armed. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 10:12 PM	#112
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I wasn't addressing the murder rate. If I was addressing that then I would have said so. I was addressing the crime rate UG, that's why I said, crime rate. As to the saving 2.5B. Presumably the goods will be remaining in the US after they're stolen anyway, so you'll still have them (if stopping robberies by threatening theives with a gun is what you were trying to imply). They've just been reappropriated. lol __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 10:13 PM	#113
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	OK...sorry, I shouldn't have laughed. This is a serious subject, but you just crack me up sometimes UG. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 10:16 PM	#114
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	That's 2.5B of wrongs not committed, Ali -- nothing to sneeze at, is it? We can at least estimate an economic value to self defense. I don't think that's been even semiseriously attempted before. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-25-2006, 10:18 PM	#115
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	No, it's wonderful UG. I'm very pleased your happy. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 10:42 PM	#117
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	you're then. I'm sorry I can't type everything perfectly every time. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-25-2006, 10:53 PM	#118
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	If my Backspace key ever breaks, I might as well be typing encrypted. :rolleye: __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-25-2006, 10:58 PM	#119
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	lol...well I'm pretty sure most of us use that facility fairly regularly, except maybe the perfect ones among us. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

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