Iraq by the Numbers - or how to be dumb.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Well, lad, there's the most visible difference between thee and me. I read ST at thirteen and found it seminal. I've lived my life through an understanding of The Heinlein Lecture. The guy's thinking is libertarian, you know... check out Tramp Royale sometime for his views on visas, passports, and general ID paperwork and paper shuffling.

The other most visible difference between thee and me, were I to post a barechested pic like you did, is I've got more hair on my chest and less on my head -- unless you count the part around my jaws. :p

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Well, lad, there's the most visible difference between thee and me. I read ST at thirteen and found it seminal. I've lived my life through an understanding of The Heinlein Lecture. The guy's thinking is libertarian, you know... check out Tramp Royale sometime for his views on visas, passports, and general ID paperwork and paper shuffling.

The other most visible difference between thee and me, were I to post a barechested pic like you did, is I've got more hair on my chest and less on my head -- unless you count the part around my jaws. :p

I've read everything he published... it took me a very long time to find it all and read it. Changed me. ST is a great story, there are several more with a similar theme, some more poetic and subtle.
I too felt that places like Portugal have it right... two years compensatory service should be the way, end of story. Freedom is not free.
Don't want to kill? Conscientious objectors get to be in support jobs, there are plenty of them.
BTW, I tried to serve, arthritis kept me out.

I have also read all of Louis L'Amour's work. Another great American Storyteller.

[Ibby]

I read it at twelve (and thrice since then, and actually at this very moment reading it again) and thought it was a damn good read, but not a damn good political philosophy.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Mmm, this may be. It certainly hasn't been tried out in the form laid out in the book, but that's true of most social science fiction. The particular clue that it's a libertarian global societal setting is that line of Rico senior's: "Laws are few."

[Hippikos]

In ST Heinlein glorifies militarism in an almost apostolic way. Truth is that war is dirty and there's nothing apostolic about it. But then again it's (Science) Fiction, no real blood running, no dismembered bodies, no teared up skulls with scattered brains.

I can imagine that one loves the book at the age of 13, but with the years wisdom and reality should replace idealism and fantasy. I'm afraid you got stuck at that age.

South America, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Mogadishu, Iraq, Afghanistan show how reality is.

And I've said it before, the White House foreign politics have nothing to do with Starship Trooper mentality, but everything with influence and energy sources. So, dream on Professor, dream on...

[Aliantha]

Hip, you might need a better link than that one. Even Wiki has a warning on that one.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hippikos, running through everything Heinlein wrote is what might be called The Heinlein Lecture, as evident in ST as in anything else. I respond to the wisdom in The Heinlein Lecture very well. If you can't... well, I can't help you. God couldn't help you.

Having both read Starship Troopers and served two hitches in the military, I find what Heinlein has to say about military service to be quite real, and quite wise -- they compare well. Yattering about "glorifying" the military is mere dronespeak, of nil value. People who've done military, thus committing a portion (or even the entirety) of their lives to the protection of their societies, do not speak as you do, Hippikos.

There are the people who get Heinlein, and there are the groundlings. All I can suggest is more exposure. You'll still be you, Hipp, and not become me -- you'll just be smarter or wiser, is all.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Hippikos, running through everything Heinlein wrote is what might be called The Heinlein Lecture, as evident in ST as in anything else. I respond to the wisdom in The Heinlein Lecture very well. If you can't... well, I can't help you. God couldn't help you.

Having both read Starship Troopers and served two hitches in the military, I find what Heinlein has to say about military service to be quite real, and quite wise -- they compare well. Yattering about "glorifying" the military is mere dronespeak, of nil value. People who've done military, thus committing a portion (or even the entirety) of their lives to the protection of their societies, do not speak as you do, Hippikos.

There are the people who get Heinlein, and there are the groundlings. All I can suggest is more exposure. You'll still be you, Hipp, and not become me -- you'll just be smarter or wiser, is all.

I was drafted to military service when I was 18 for 1,5 years in the middle of the Cold War and have been stationed in Germany for some time. There was still a draft in my country when I was at that age. Believe it or not I was selected to become a Marine, but I declined because that meant 24 months of service instead of 18. As I was right at the start of a promising civilian career, had a good job with excellent prospects, you can imagine that I wasn't over-enthusiastic to start a military career instead. Despite having been in military service I still can't find any resemblance with a Star Trooper, unless you are gullible enough to spoon up everything politicians say. Because at the end of the line, it's the Politician who makes the decision to go to war, the military only obeys orders.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hey, in Vietnam the Communists committed many atrocities. In and out of the cities.

This is only news, or seems news, to certain people.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Hey, in Vietnam the Communists committed many atrocities. In and out of the cities.

This is only news, or seems news, to certain people.

I visted Hue and saw were the NVA murdered thousand and threw them in mass graves during TET 68.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ronald Cherrycoke

I visted Hue and saw were the NVA murdered thousand and threw them in mass graves during TET 68.

And I visited where George Washington slept. Ronald - by your own claim, you arrived in Nam one year after Tet. Did they also show you where Ho Chi Minh slept? Gee - that would make you an expert.

Of course, this assumes you don't post lies. Let's see. What was that lie you posted from the Iraq Study Group?

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by tw

And I visited where George Washington slept. Ronald - by your own claim, you arrived in Nam one year after Tet. Did they also show you where Ho Chi Minh slept? Gee - that would make you an expert.

Of course, this assumes you don't post lies. Let's see. What was that lie you posted from the Iraq Study Group?

Sure I saw the grave site...the South Vietnamese used it as a political focal point for sometime....do you claim it never existed or it didn`t happen?

[piercehawkeye45]

In Vietnam, America was actually fighting against someone instead of sitting in the middle...

[Kitsune]

Iraq was supposed to be a happy place by now, released documents reveal, pro-American and all.

Some of the planning by Gen. Tommy Franks and other top military officials before the 2003 invasion of Iraq envisioned that as few as 5,000 U.S. troops would remain in Iraq by December 2006, according to documents obtained by a private research organization.

"First, they assumed that a provisional government would be in place by 'D-Day', then that the Iraqis would stay in their garrisons and be reliable partners, and finally that the post-hostilities phase would be a matter of mere 'months'. All of these were delusions."

That's 5,000 troops total.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Holy shit, those slides are more embarrassing than, not making plans.