TSA authorities can fine you $10,000 for leaving the airport - Page 8

Undertoad · 11-28-2010, 08:48 AM

Good morning ladies and gents. Today we have a post, linked by BoingBoing, from a molecular biologist who looks at the TSA backscatter scanning machines and tries to determine whether they are safe.

http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2....html?spref=fb

It's hard to excerpt, but the bottom line is, "the jury is still out on whether these machines are safe or even could be made safe for this application."

This is a tough subject, because it is close to conspiracy theory when one actually questions the official line. I find most conspiracy theories to be near crazy. How could the Federal Govt possibly be using machines that could be unsafe? They SAID it was safe in official documents.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, except possibly at the manufacturer's level. There were two competing technologies for this I think, and we know that there was big money involved including millions spent on lobbying. The lesson from the Space Shuttle Columbia was that, in this era, the MBAs at the top are inclined to believe much different things than the engineers. They will force an atmosphere where their belief is the overriding one, because it's money involved. If they want it to be called safe, even if a 1-in-100,000 failure could hurt someone, it will be called safe.

After reading the original UCSF concerns, which I linked in this thread, and this post by the molecular biologist, there are pretty serious questions. It's not just a political tilt that now, I say, I would not go through these machines. I recommend you don't either.

footfootfoot · 11-28-2010, 08:58 AM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/23/headlines#5

Manufacturers of Full Body Scanners Increase Lobbying Effort

As the national debate over airport screening practices intensifies, little attention has paid to the increasing lobbying power the manufacturers of full body scanning machines have in Washington. USA Today reports L3 Communications has spent $4.3 million on lobbying, up from $2.1 million in 2005. L3 has sold nearly $40 million worth of machines to the federal government. Lobbyists for L3 have included Linda Daschle, the wife of former U.S. Senate majority leader Tom Daschle. Meanwhile Rapiscan Systems has spent more than $270,000 on lobbying so far this year, compared with $80,000 five years earlier. The company made headlines last year when it hired former U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff who has become a prominent proponent of body scanners. The CEO of Rapiscan’s parent company, Deepak Chopra, recently traveled with President Obama on his three-day trip to India.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-28-2010, 09:22 AM

It's interesting to hear from somebody that knows the science behind this shit. The calculation of dosage on some parts of the body is startling. Sure, a drop of sulphuric acid in your bath water won't do much damage, but when dropped on the skin it's serious damage.

But no matter what the dangers, the ~~sheep~~ public have voted this Thanksgiving weekend. I don't think is was worrying about the plane blowing up, as much as not wanting to be delayed. The same reason people take horrendous risks when they're driving, rather than getting where they're going 5 minutes later.

Clodfobble · 11-28-2010, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Meanwhile Rapiscan Systems

Seriously? I mean, I'm sure they're going for [rapid]-scan, but all I can hear in my head is [rapey]-scan.

Lamplighter · 11-28-2010, 06:32 PM

Full body scanners - coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
How can any security manager NOT go down this road ?

AP
By P. SOLOMON BANDA, Associated Press – Tue Nov 23, 9:21 pm ET
Full-body scanners popping up at courthouses
CASTLE ROCK, Colo

Quote:

The U.S. Marshals Service, which is in charge of protecting federal judges nationwide,
is exploring their use at federal courthouses.
And two state courthouses in Douglas and El Paso counties in Colorado have already deployed
full-body scanners that use radio waves to detect all objects on a person, including paper.

glatt · 11-28-2010, 06:59 PM

At least courthouses are frequented every day by actual know violent criminals. Not like airports where it's normal people just trying to get where they are going.

classicman · 11-28-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

At least courthouses are frequented every day by actual know violent criminals.
Not like airports where it's normal terrorists just trying to get where they are going.

he he he

xoxoxoBruce · 11-28-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

At least courthouses are frequented every day by actual know violent criminals. Not like airports where it's normal people just trying to get where they are going.

Yeah, but airports are voluntary, refusing to go to the courthouse can get you indefinite jail time for contempt of court.

Spexxvet · 11-29-2010, 08:15 AM

The government should try staying out of the process. Let the public know that the each airline is responsible for the safety of its own flights, and consumers can choose how safe they want to be. Maybe have terrorism liability clauses that pay indirectly proportional to how involved security is. You can get a low cost, no security check walk-on flight with Jet Blew (up), or a higher cost flight with more security from Scan And Pat Air.

footfootfoot · 11-28-2010, 06:53 PM

Oh yeah, they are wanting them at subway stations and bus terminals...

classicman · 11-29-2010, 10:56 AM

Its not just the people on the plane that are the problem. Its when the plane gets used as a weapon - ie: its flown into a building and such. The collateral damage is much greater than just the passengers and one planeload of people. It affects more, much more than just the people flying.

glatt · 11-29-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Its not just the people on the plane that are the problem. Its when the plane gets used as a weapon - ie: its flown into a building and such.

With the hardened cockpit doors and alert passengers, that will never happen again. The most a terrorist can try for is to time a bomb right so that a plane will go down in a city. But planes mostly avoid flying over high density downtown areas. So you might end up with a neighborhood like Rockaway getting a crash landing, and a handful of people on the ground dying. It's bad, but no where near as bad as WTC going down.

classicman · 11-29-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

With the hardened cockpit doors and alert passengers, that will never happen again.

Lets hope so.

footfootfoot · 11-29-2010, 11:52 AM

It had never happened before and hasn't happened since.

Happy Monkey · 11-30-2010, 10:18 AM

Unless they're the pilot. Then we'll be sorry we locked those doors!

11-28-2010, 08:58 AM	#2
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/23/headlines#5 Manufacturers of Full Body Scanners Increase Lobbying Effort As the national debate over airport screening practices intensifies, little attention has paid to the increasing lobbying power the manufacturers of full body scanning machines have in Washington. USA Today reports L3 Communications has spent $4.3 million on lobbying, up from $2.1 million in 2005. L3 has sold nearly $40 million worth of machines to the federal government. Lobbyists for L3 have included Linda Daschle, the wife of former U.S. Senate majority leader Tom Daschle. Meanwhile Rapiscan Systems has spent more than $270,000 on lobbying so far this year, compared with $80,000 five years earlier. The company made headlines last year when it hired former U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff who has become a prominent proponent of body scanners. The CEO of Rapiscan’s parent company, Deepak Chopra, recently traveled with President Obama on his three-day trip to India. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

11-28-2010, 09:22 AM	#3
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	It's interesting to hear from somebody that knows the science behind this shit. The calculation of dosage on some parts of the body is startling. Sure, a drop of sulphuric acid in your bath water won't do much damage, but when dropped on the skin it's serious damage. But no matter what the dangers, the ~~sheep~~ public have voted this Thanksgiving weekend. I don't think is was worrying about the plane blowing up, as much as not wanting to be delayed. The same reason people take horrendous risks when they're driving, rather than getting where they're going 5 minutes later. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

11-29-2010, 08:15 AM	#9
Spexxvet Makes some feel uncomfortable Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10,346	The government should try staying out of the process. Let the public know that the each airline is responsible for the safety of its own flights, and consumers can choose how safe they want to be. Maybe have terrorism liability clauses that pay indirectly proportional to how involved security is. You can get a low cost, no security check walk-on flight with Jet Blew (up), or a higher cost flight with more security from Scan And Pat Air. __________________ "I'm certainly free, nay compelled, to spread the gospel of Spex. " - xoxoxoBruce

11-28-2010, 06:53 PM	#10
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Oh yeah, they are wanting them at subway stations and bus terminals... __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

11-29-2010, 10:56 AM	#11
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Its not just the people on the plane that are the problem. Its when the plane gets used as a weapon - ie: its flown into a building and such. The collateral damage is much greater than just the passengers and one planeload of people. It affects more, much more than just the people flying. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

11-28-2010, 08:48 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Good morning ladies and gents. Today we have a post, linked by BoingBoing, from a molecular biologist who looks at the TSA backscatter scanning machines and tries to determine whether they are safe. http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2....html?spref=fb It's hard to excerpt, but the bottom line is, "the jury is still out on whether these machines are safe or even could be made safe for this application." This is a tough subject, because it is close to conspiracy theory when one actually questions the official line. I find most conspiracy theories to be near crazy. How could the Federal Govt possibly be using machines that could be unsafe? They SAID it was safe in official documents. I don't think it's a conspiracy, except possibly at the manufacturer's level. There were two competing technologies for this I think, and we know that there was big money involved including millions spent on lobbying. The lesson from the Space Shuttle Columbia was that, in this era, the MBAs at the top are inclined to believe much different things than the engineers. They will force an atmosphere where their belief is the overriding one, because it's money involved. If they want it to be called safe, even if a 1-in-100,000 failure could hurt someone, it will be called safe. After reading the original UCSF concerns, which I linked in this thread, and this post by the molecular biologist, there are pretty serious questions. It's not just a political tilt that now, I say, I would not go through these machines. I recommend you don't either.

11-28-2010, 06:59 PM	#6
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	At least courthouses are frequented every day by actual know violent criminals. Not like airports where it's normal people just trying to get where they are going.

11-29-2010, 11:52 AM	#14
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	It had never happened before and hasn't happened since. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

11-30-2010, 10:18 AM	#15
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Unless they're the pilot. Then we'll be sorry we locked those doors! __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

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