Is there free will in heaven?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by wolf
No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.

It's okay.

Sometimes I help them.

(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)

It's funny you say that, because MY house is the one the Mormon Elders brought the newbs to when they first arrived in the area. If they still had faith when I was done with them, they had to go for a ride in The Box (TM).

[bluesdave]

Does Heaven really exist at all? I think that as science and medicine develop further, it will be obvious to most clear thinking people, that what we feel, how we think, and what makes us what we are, is the result of the interactions of millions of cells in our bodies, compounded with our day to day experiences in life. I don't think there is anything mystical or spiritual about it - just plain old biology.

Of course, being human, we'll stick doggedly to our beliefs like super glue, regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary.

[mrnoodle]

But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:

-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?

-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.

-unbaptized babies.

-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.

Romans 2:14-16 -- Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Reader's Digest version - if people haven't heard specifically about Jesus, the gospel, etc., they will be judged according to the law that is written on their heart. I interpret it to mean that God programmed you already. Headhunters with plates in their lips will be judged, but not necessarily by whether or not they know who Jesus was.

A question for slart (or anyone else versed in Catholicism), completely unrelated to the rest of this post.... where, in the bible, is any authority given to the pope to make "infallible" doctrine? Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?

At dinner, when Catholics want to ask their fathers to pass the potatoes, do they have to go through their mothers for permission to ask the fathers?

[Slartibartfast]

There are several questions here, let me tackle two right now, and leave the rest for a later moment when I have some time to write and think more.

'Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? '

That would be putting the cart before the horse. The mere human alone can't forgive sin, the authority comes from higher up. That priest is acting as a representative and physical human stand in for God.


'Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?'

Call it good psychology. Why do people spend so much on psychologists and psychiatrists to unload things off their mind? People need to vent and get things out, or else things could stay inside and fester. Confessing to another person all the negative shit you do is a part of addressing it, like the Alcoholic who finally admits to others in AA that he has a problem. Once you admit to a problem, you can deal with it and move on. Confessing to God through just prayer is still too much of an internal dialog, there has to be an external human element to the process.

[Perry5]

Do you know where hell is?

Do you know where the lake of fire is?

Iff i did not know where i was going would you follow me???

[DanaC]

*blinks*

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?

This points to a basic misconception about the afterlife--that after our physical death we might remain individuals, with the name and the identity we had while alive.

If we think instead of the animating spark of life within us as a small part of a complete, singular universe, then the very idea of our individuality becomes a matter of biological constraints. These counstraints would be undone upon our death, and therefore any illusion of individuality.

We would go to heaven not as individual souls travelling to a cosmic vacation resort, but rather upon our physical death we would simply rejoin the universe we temporarily forgot that we were a part of all along.

At that point, concepts like "free will" no longer have any meaning.

[Troubleshooter]

There is no "I" in heaven.

[jinx]

I love this question... it just cuts right thru all the bullshit.

[classicman]

If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Oh hell, don't let that stop you. Everyone else is speculating about something they know nothing about.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by classicman

If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?

If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do, then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born. Our whole lives were mapped out for us before we were born. Not by a higher power, but mapped out the same way a ball will fall to the ground if you release it from your hand.

Or the other view is that we are sentient. That our consciousness is influenced by our bodies, but is separate from our bodies, and that we can make choices independent from the influences of our bodies.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by glatt

If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do,

You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.

then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born.

[Troubleshooter]

Two words come to mind when dealing with consciousness.

Indeterminacy and emergence.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.

Unless you are willing to state that a "magical" factor is necessary to produe a human mind, then it is 100% certain that the natural laws of physics determine what we are.

Now, in order to claim that the human mind is a result of "magical" or "supernatural" qualities (which there is no way of avoiding if you want to claim that we are not a result of the same mundane natural laws that produce everything else) one must assume an attitude of supremely self-satisfied, human-centric egotism.