WHAT GROUP ANNOYS YOU THE MOST ?

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

*sigh*

C

C

/exit

Um..am I supposed to understand that?

When you feel you're losing, you resort to this?

Or is there some mystical quality to the post that i am, as an Evil Liberal, once again, failing to divine?

[Trilby]

OH! I get it! You are responding as the survival choice of the conservative minded!

You ever think that some conservatives might not agree with your views on rape?

[Elspode]

I cannot even begin to fathom how what a woman is wearing or not wearing could be construed as an invitation to rape. What the hell is so hard about, "No means no"? Yes, I've been told "no" by women dressed hot enough to scald my fingers (which, in some cases, I actually had down their panties, with their willing participation, when they said "no").

The blame is on the rapist, never the victim. Now, if a lady gives it up, then cries rape *after having given consent* in a fit of remorse or psychosis, we have a valid argument about the lady being to blame. Otherwise...no means no.

And Noodle, I am in no way directing my sarcasm at you. My sarcasm is directed at the incredibly Puritanical, misogynistic rhetoric which exists in our culture that even makes discussions like this necessary. To me, it should be glaringly obvious that a woman should not be forced into sex under any circumstances, most especially by dint of dress or mannerisms. But because of cultural, largely religious influences, people still seem to be able to imagine a world where the raped can be at fault.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The [rapist] is still the criminal, the [rapist] should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The [rapist] is 100% to blame for 100% of the crime.

[Elspode]

*Doubly* not blaming Noodle. Fact of the matter is, I get kinda lost in these lengthy threads. But I'm still not pointing the finger at Noodle.

Zealotry of any kind stinks, and our society is being boiled in it these days, all for power and profit. Morality doesn't enter into it at all.

[mrnoodle]

re: Brianna asking why I left -- I'm leaving because it's pointless to continue. I've said what I said, anyone can read it and figure out what it meant. You are continuing to throw rocks, hoping I'll pull a bmw and respond in kind. Sorry, that bores me. As does trying to find 150 ways to say the same thing in a way that you can't respond to with "oh yeah? well you're a poopoo head!" That magic sentence doesn't exist, because you enter every debate with a chip on your shoulder, and flatly refuse to be civil.

Let me say 2 things in no uncertain terms, and with no room for misinterpretation:

Rape is inexcusable.

Deliberately dressing to attract sexual attention works. Unfortunately, you don't have the luxury of screening which kind of attention you get, and thereby experience ONLY the reactions you wanted. Of course, you are entitled to individually prosecute every occurrence of ogling, catcalls, unwanted sexual advances, etc. etc. I personally think it would be easier to just put on some clothes. Your mileage may vary.

As I was telling Nao, if you say something like that, expect to have people misrepresent it, and start making cracks like

Brianna, you know as well as I do that sex outside of holy matrimony is an affront to Jehova; an abomination of Man. Therefore, harlots reap what they sow when they dress in a provocative and non-demure fashion.

Now...who wants to see my new line of designer burquas and veils? I also sell belly dancing accessories, but we make you sign a waiver saying that you won't sue us if you're raped while wearing them. After all, you would be scantily clad and gyrating provocatively, and you'd be just asking for it.

[/tragic voice/]

"yes! Yes, I was! I was sooooo hoping for a shot of Timberlake's crotch! And what did I get? A middle-aged woman's TIT! It almost made me go out and rape somebody!"

[end/tragic voice/]

well, she deserves what she gets. Let's not think about the many underlying causes for that exposed tit, let's just blame her for exposing it!

also--just for the hell of it: by your logic, strippers are begging to be raped. It's ok to rape them? Coz, they didn't "lock the front door"-? To be a stripper is to be an idiot? Asking for it?

In England they've a newspaper that prints photos of topless women, called Page 3 Girls, I believe. are they asking for it, too?

Out of all that, only about 3 lines are any kind of civilized discussion. As I told Nao, only people with certain viewpoints are allowed this sort of behavior, while we would get instant "asshole" labels because of our conservatism.

While we're on the topic though, I'll take a stab at the few bits that approach normal conversation.

well, she deserves what she gets. Let's not think about the many underlying causes for that exposed tit, let's just blame her for exposing it!

Again (and again, and again), "deserving" rape and making yourself a more appealing target for it are two different things. The underlying causes make fine discussion over coffee and biscuits, but they don't do you much good in realtime. If someone decides to make you a victim, you don't have a whole lot of time to ask them about their relationship with their mother before they have forced themselves on you. Unless you have a gun

also--just for the hell of it: by your logic, strippers are begging to be raped. It's ok to rape them? Coz, they didn't "lock the front door"-? To be a stripper is to be an idiot? Asking for it?

Overlooking the "begging to be raped" and "ok to rape them" mischaracterizations for the moment, yes. I have known many strippers. Almost all of them have been victims of some kind of criminal sex-related activity. Some of them were working on the side after hours and got raped or beaten. Some were stalked by customers. 2 of them (I dated them both) told me they got into the work because they had been raped, and wanted to feel power over men...don't ask me how they expected to achieve this by dancing. They were, without exception, mentally and spiritually beat up, and sick of life. I was trying to talk one friend out of working at the Hunt Club (the unofficial name is the Cunt Hub), and couldn't do it. She was going to get rich. Instead, she got a meth addiction.

By the way, you east coasters should be glad that it's still just crack out there. When meth hits you, you will think it's armaggedon. [/sidetrack]

In England they've a newspaper that prints photos of topless women, called Page 3 Girls, I believe. are they asking for it, too?

If they're walking to the grocery store in their Page 3 attire, probably.


edit: elspode, I usually ken where you're coming from. But you're still making my point to Nao
Conservatism gets hammered, any flavor of liberalism is to be fellated by all.

[Elspode]

Illogical conservatism gets hammered. I just don't see it as illogical that a woman, even if totally nude, should be able to go about her nude business without being molested.

If I go away for the weekend, and someone breaks into my house, I was inviting that by not being home? If I'm walking with a limp, and thugs run me down because I looked like I couldn't get away, should I stay indoors until I no longer am limping?

I am not arguing the fact that criminals should be prosecuted. Hell, I think they should be *executed*. How's that for Liberalism? Sometimes, I think the Death Penalty for car stereo theft would be a major deterrent. I don't think anyone should victimize anyone else, and I don't think that, when someone *is* victimized, we should start adding their vulnerability, even when self-generated, to the equation.

[Happy Monkey]

Saying that women who dress provocatively are asking to be raped is conservatism? I guess I'll take your word for it, but that isn't the reason it gets hammered.

[Trilby]

Well. I guess i got told.

I am pretty fuqing stupid, thinking the way I do, that I might in some small way matter.

Nothing matters except what I am told matters.

Thanks for clearing that up, noodle--and, for the love of your own god, please don't martyr yourself on another one of my stupid, cunt-ing posts ever again.

[mrnoodle]

Nao, are you taking notes?

Have I ever, ever, ever, ever said that someone deserves rape? Not once. But what gets thrown back in my face? The same tired old line. "Asking for it" does not mean that you deserve it. My parents told me all the time, "If you go there, you're asking for trouble." It's a figure of speech. But when it suits your argument to turn it into something else, that's what happens.

You could say that by interjecting my opinion, knowing what was likely to happen, I was asking to get slammed. Does that mean I don't have a right to my opinion? Certainly not, or at least I hope not. But, I knew Brianna was going to come out guns blazing, and I said my peace anyway. Cause and effect. I can't control Brianna, but if I really really wanted to do everything in my power to keep from getting reamed out, I wouldn't say certain things around her.

Class dismissed. <3

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Saying that women who dress provocatively are asking to be raped is conservatism? I guess I'll take your word for it, but that isn't the reason it gets hammered.

No, saying that women who dress provocatively are asking to be raped is *illogical*. I wasn't the one who linked Conservatism and the dress=asking to be raped notion.

I do think it fair, though, to generally characterize Conservatives as being consevative about sexual matters, and less than generous about complications thereof. When one's notion (and I'm not saying that you, specifically, have this notion) is that open sexuality is inherently bad, then the notion that bad things will happen to you is likely to follow.

Obviously, not all Conservatives hold to such notions, but the overall increase in sexual repression and the notion that it is bad that seems to be accompanying our slide toward theocracy and conservatism lately.

I don't hold Truth. I hold opinions.

[mrnoodle]

I was just snitty in that last post. Let's see what response I get.

[Sundae]

Noodle

Not sure if you saw nothing of worth in my post, and not sure if I want to keep on with this, but to clarify my position:

- "You have an Aston Martin? You're just asking to have it stolen"
- "You leave your Aston Martin unlocked? You're just asking to have it stolen"

I don't believe dress puts women at risk, but behaviour (rightly or wrongly) can.

- "She dressed like a whore, she was asking to be raped"
- "She walked home drunk late at night, she was asking to be raped"

In both cases the language is harsher than I would choose, but only the second statement of each pair describes irresponsible behaviour.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I was just snitty in that last post. Let's see what response I get.

noodle, I like and respect you. I feel you give a valuable Christian insight into sticky matters. I love Jesus. I try to follow Jesus (coz, of all the gods, he was the coolest and least vengeful--his father, not so much) --I pick at you because I am horribly self-centered and believe I can expand your already stretched horizon.

The fact that you can't "control Brianna" should not concern you in the least. I, myself, have no such designs on you.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Elspode

No, saying that women who dress provocatively are asking to be raped is *illogical*. I wasn't the one who linked Conservatism and the dress=asking to be raped notion.

I know, I was responding to mrnoodle, but you snuck in first.