Song Critique

smoothmoniker · 12-12-2009, 10:15 AM

So, my niece sent me a bunch of songs that she wants to record. She is 18 and hoping to become a singer-songwriter.

The songs are ... young. Awkward word choices and predictable rhymes. Melodies that sing poorly and don't really stick. She has a clear voice and some good instincts, but these songs aren't ready to start sending out saying "Look at me!"

So, family politics question. How honest should I be? Should I critique these songs like I would a client that I was hired to work for, or be encouraging guy like the good uncle.

She is an eternal optimist, and my sense is that she will only hear the positive things I say. If I say, "Well, I like this part, but this this this this and this need fixing", she'll walk way only hearing the "I like this part." Like I said, she's young.

So, I feel like the only way she'll actually listen to the critique is if I make it stark and direct. But then, awkward Thanksgiving and Christmas family time for the next 20 years.

So ... thoughts?

skysidhe · 12-12-2009, 10:19 AM

I found that critiques don't work but then I don't have any music background.

I know what would make a song sound better and I know what I don't like about a song but just saying so when someone asks how they like their new song any critique just comes off as a bummer. I really don't think some musicians want honesty even when your best intentions are to help their career advance.

I really hate placating though and lying. It's a hard call.

edit- my choice would be between 1 and 2 depending on if she asked for advice. If she didn't ask I would chose option 1 because if she has just begun then she needs to experiment. The more confidence she can get the better she will be at figuring things out for herself. I guess I've decided on #1.

Spexxvet · 12-12-2009, 10:49 AM

Be mostly kind, but point out the problem areas that need attention.

And write it down. That way she'll be able to use it as a reference, and later, when she's not talking with Uncle Inthemusicbiz, maybe she'll notice the constructive parts.

Undertoad · 12-12-2009, 11:17 AM

Explain patiently to her that, with very very few exceptions, all hit records sung by young chicks are written by middle aged men.

Qice · 12-12-2009, 11:46 AM

Be gentle, but remind her that it takes years to hone the needed skills

Clodfobble · 12-12-2009, 11:49 AM

Just make some other dude the fall guy.

Tell her, "It's so cool that you did all this by yourself! I showed it to this producer friend I know in the business, and he said it has promise, but there's some stuff you'd need to tweak before it might be ready to catch eyes as a demo. Let me tell you what he said--I bet I can help you do some of the things he's talking about..."

lumberjim · 12-12-2009, 11:59 AM

tell her this:

Quote:

The songs are ... young. Awkward word choices and predictable rhymes. Melodies that sing poorly and don't really stick. She has a clear voice and some good instincts, but these songs aren't ready to start sending out saying "Look at me!"

zippyt · 12-12-2009, 12:06 PM

I agree with Jim on this

Clodfobble · 12-12-2009, 12:09 PM

That's because you're men and you're mean.

As a former 18-year-old girl, I can tell you that tears will be a part of this if you tell her exactly that quote with no encouragement. You can tell her the truth (it's not ready for the big time) without slamming every inadequacy down her throat all at once.

toranokaze · 12-12-2009, 01:01 PM

I would give her an honest cirque , for lying to her does her a disservice. However, giving a brutal criticism is not the answer either. It seems to me that this situation calls for tact.
From what I see she could be a diamond in the rough.

So in a wordy way I agree with clod.

DanaC · 12-12-2009, 02:47 PM

Since you're in the field of education, I assume you've heard of the term 'praise sandwich'? Something good, something to change, something good.

Sundae · 12-12-2009, 04:19 PM

Funny, Dana, because when I worked in sales it was called a bollock sandwich

And that was before I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here!
Then again, with hard skinned sales people you really had to bollock them first and last to make an impression.

I agree with Clod.
Get the criticism across without making yourself the bad guy.
Not my directive for life, just a useful one when dealing with teens, who rarely (if ever) accept the opinions of family anyway.
Of course if she asks if you agree you need to pull a face and shrug and say, "I think he's probably right" but you are off the hook family-wise and she still gets great advice.

DanaC · 12-12-2009, 04:41 PM

*chuckles* yah, as an ex-sales person i am aware of the bollock sandwich :P

As a tutor I was taught to deliver a positive comment, followed by the criticism and then end with another positive. The initial positive comment opens up the student to listen, they then are more receptive to the criticism, then you leave them with a positive comment which boosts them and makes it more likely that they'll take on board the earlier criticism.

limey · 12-12-2009, 05:09 PM

So, the songs are young. Of course they are, they were written by a young person. When she is older she'll write different stuff. Can't you judge them in context, as songs an 18-year-old would write? Of course they're not going to measure up to UT's middle aged men, but that's not the right yardstick, is it?
What is her aim - does she want fame now, or is she prepared to work at it?
So I'd say critique the songs in the right context, and give her advice on how to achieve her goal ...

skysidhe · 12-12-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limey

So, the songs are young. Of course they are, they were written by a young person. When she is older she'll write different stuff. Can't you judge them in context, as songs an 18-year-old would write? Of course they're not going to measure up to UT's middle aged men, but that's not the right yardstick, is it?
What is her aim - does she want fame now, or is she prepared to work at it?
So I'd say critique the songs in the right context, and give her advice on how to achieve her goal ...

That was my point to limey. Well said.

View Poll Results: How hard should I critique?
Be as gentle as a newborn fawn, and tell her she's the next Joni Mitchell.	2	15.38%
Be mostly kind, but point out the problem areas that need attention	7	53.85%
Be brutal, critique hard, but say one nice thing so that she doesn't go Ophelia on my ass	4	30.77%
Change my pitch up, smack my bitch up	0	0%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

12-12-2009, 10:19 AM	#2
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	I found that critiques don't work but then I don't have any music background. I know what would make a song sound better and I know what I don't like about a song but just saying so when someone asks how they like their new song any critique just comes off as a bummer. I really don't think some musicians want honesty even when your best intentions are to help their career advance. I really hate placating though and lying. It's a hard call. edit- my choice would be between 1 and 2 depending on if she asked for advice. If she didn't ask I would chose option 1 because if she has just begun then she needs to experiment. The more confidence she can get the better she will be at figuring things out for herself. I guess I've decided on #1. Last edited by skysidhe; 12-12-2009 at 10:35 AM.

12-12-2009, 10:49 AM	#3
Spexxvet Makes some feel uncomfortable Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10,346	Be mostly kind, but point out the problem areas that need attention. And write it down. That way she'll be able to use it as a reference, and later, when she's not talking with Uncle Inthemusicbiz, maybe she'll notice the constructive parts. __________________ "I'm certainly free, nay compelled, to spread the gospel of Spex. " - xoxoxoBruce

12-12-2009, 11:46 AM	#5
Qice A b**** of the highest caliber Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 114	Be gentle, but remind her that it takes years to hone the needed skills __________________ I like like minded people... a bit like minded anyway.. well people with bits of their minds that are like the bits of my mind that I like

12-12-2009, 11:49 AM	#6
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Just make some other dude the fall guy. Tell her, "It's so cool that you did all this by yourself! I showed it to this producer friend I know in the business, and he said it has promise, but there's some stuff you'd need to tweak before it might be ready to catch eyes as a demo. Let me tell you what he said--I bet I can help you do some of the things he's talking about..." __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

12-12-2009, 10:15 AM	#1
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	Song Critique So, my niece sent me a bunch of songs that she wants to record. She is 18 and hoping to become a singer-songwriter. The songs are ... young. Awkward word choices and predictable rhymes. Melodies that sing poorly and don't really stick. She has a clear voice and some good instincts, but these songs aren't ready to start sending out saying "Look at me!" So, family politics question. How honest should I be? Should I critique these songs like I would a client that I was hired to work for, or be encouraging guy like the good uncle. She is an eternal optimist, and my sense is that she will only hear the positive things I say. If I say, "Well, I like this part, but this this this this and this need fixing", she'll walk way only hearing the "I like this part." Like I said, she's young. So, I feel like the only way she'll actually listen to the critique is if I make it stark and direct. But then, awkward Thanksgiving and Christmas family time for the next 20 years. So ... thoughts? __________________ to live and die in LA

12-12-2009, 11:17 AM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Explain patiently to her that, with very very few exceptions, all hit records sung by young chicks are written by middle aged men.

12-12-2009, 12:06 PM	#8
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	I agree with Jim on this __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

12-12-2009, 12:09 PM	#9
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	That's because you're men and you're mean. As a former 18-year-old girl, I can tell you that tears will be a part of this if you tell her exactly that quote with no encouragement. You can tell her the truth (it's not ready for the big time) without slamming every inadequacy down her throat all at once. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

12-12-2009, 01:01 PM	#10
toranokaze I'm still a jerk Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Little Mexico Posts: 1,817	I would give her an honest cirque , for lying to her does her a disservice. However, giving a brutal criticism is not the answer either. It seems to me that this situation calls for tact. From what I see she could be a diamond in the rough. So in a wordy way I agree with clod. __________________ "Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible." - Frank Zappa It is the ignorance of ignorance that lead to the death of knowledge The Virgin Mary does not weep for her son, for he is in paradise. She weeps for the world , for we are in suffering.

12-12-2009, 04:19 PM	#12
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Funny, Dana, because when I worked in sales it was called a bollock sandwich And that was before I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here! Then again, with hard skinned sales people you really had to bollock them first and last to make an impression. I agree with Clod. Get the criticism across without making yourself the bad guy. Not my directive for life, just a useful one when dealing with teens, who rarely (if ever) accept the opinions of family anyway. Of course if she asks if you agree you need to pull a face and shrug and say, "I think he's probably right" but you are off the hook family-wise and she still gets great advice. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

12-12-2009, 05:09 PM	#14
limey Encroaching on your decrees Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: An island within the south-west coast of Scotland Posts: 7,016	So, the songs are young. Of course they are, they were written by a young person. When she is older she'll write different stuff. Can't you judge them in context, as songs an 18-year-old would write? Of course they're not going to measure up to UT's middle aged men, but that's not the right yardstick, is it? What is her aim - does she want fame now, or is she prepared to work at it? So I'd say critique the songs in the right context, and give her advice on how to achieve her goal ... __________________ Living it up on the edge ... of civilisation, within the southwest coast of

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