ESR's Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto

[Chefranden]

Originally posted by MaggieL

Oh, I'm not confused. Just amused.

That's nice. I'm having fun too.

I'm dismissing neither Islam nor Christianity. But I draw a distinction between the two religions as a whole and the particular sects in question...Jim Jones isn't represerntative of Christianity, and the "worldwide jihadic fascists" or whatever you think they should be called today (as a courtesy I"ll detach "islamo-" from the term if you like, but I know a fascist when I see one) aren't representative of Islam as a whole, as some courageous Muslims are willing to tell us. There's lots of flavors of Christianity that aren't my buddies either. But they haven't threatened me with death lately.

Well not yet at any rate.

Not at all. I seek to eliminate him and his coreligionists because they seek to kill me, and will if they can.

This isn't about ideology, it's about survival. If they weren't seeking my death, I'd be delighted to ignore them, as I wish they would me. After a few mass murders my country responds militarily, and you say "See? You're as bad as they are." What a load of hooey.

I'm not particularly concerned with their principles, that's an issue their apologists keep wanting to bring into this discussion. Then when I say "I don't care", they respond "Well, you should! If you'd been embracing these principles, this violence wouldn't be necessary!". That's nonsense too.

There's just no equivalancy here, seek it as you may

I like that word hooey. It's just so wonderfully dismissive. Let us not think about them. Let us show them that our bomb is bigger than their bomb. Ah the raptures of combat. You do well in pointing out the idiocy of their argument, what I'm saying is that if you look at their argument in the mirror it is our argument.

I'm not seeking equivalency; I'm merely pointing it out. For example, at least from their point of view, you are not leaving them alone. You sent your infidel army to occupy their holy land. You help keep the oppressors of their people in power. You help infidels occupy their second holiest city. You are not innocent in their eyes any more than they are in yours. I think that they would agree with you as well about the survival thing. It is to them the survival of their way of life against yours. You might not be aware of your ideology but they are. To them you are saying, "I will live well at your expense."

Yes I think we are as bad as they, but on the other hand they are as bad as we. I condone neither side. I just point out that both have the same mindset and pretty much the same behavior. Of course you are aware that this side is not above murdering a few thousand people to force that side to do it's bidding and visa versa. When you do it is merely regrettable collateral damage as opposed to their despicable villainy. I'm not sure how they describe the reverse but it will be something similar.

I'm not an apologist for them, or for us. If I had the opportunity I would make the same arguments to them, and I suspect get about the same criticisms. However, I would hope that maybe some folks on both sides would step back far enough to see the other side has a point and be willing to not use bombs to get their own across.

I am disappointed with our side for not taking the moral high ground. I would like to be the good guys. To me that would lay in acting as Jesus pointed out in the Matthew quote above and not in dropping cluster bombs on Iraqi and Afghani citizens who had nothing much to do with 9/11 in the first place.

I don't think that anyone in the thread is asking you to embrace the principles of the enemy but merely to acknowledge that he has some, and may therefore be acting from a place similar to yours. That he is in fact human with a mommy and a daddy, and the same feeling of sorrow and anger at injustice that you feel. I for one am not for embracing anyone’s principle. Let's instead embrace one another.