Spelling is ruining the English language

[Cloud]

I rely rely dislik pepol hu multe-kwot bak at ya. Pisy pupers.

[Beestie]

There are things about English that bother me but spelling isn't one of them.

Stupid spelling rules bother me. Like "i before e except after c." I think I have found more exceptions to this rule than applications of it.

It bothers me that there is no second-person plural pronoun. It bothers me that there is no gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun. These are words we need but do not have.

It also bothers me that in English, unlike French for example, the modifier precedes the word instead of following it. We have gotten used to saying things this way but going from general to specific makes infinitely more sense. For example: "While touring the museum, I saw an old, heavy, dusty, broken, German, watch." In order to understand that sentence, I have to hold five adjectives in my head until I get to the end of the sentence to find out that the object is a watch then, one by one, apply the adjectives to form an image of the watch. If the word watch comes first followed by the modifiers, I apply them as they are presented and do not have to move backward through the sentence at the same time I'm moving forward. There are many instances in English where the language structure forces one to present information out of logical order. Why do I need to wait until the end of the sentence to know whether its declarative or inquisitive or exclamatory? Not all questions start with why or how. I run across this a lot reading to my kids. I'm halfway through a sentence before picking up the end punctuation only to realize I read it with the wrong inflection and have to start over.

English has a lot of limitations and using English properly involves, for me at least, making some sacrifices in the efficiency and the accuracy of the thoughts I am trying to convey. However, these are structural deficiencies.

Spelling idiosyncracies, however annoying, do not compromise the effectiveness of the language at all. Hence, I have to disagree with the initial premise of the thread.

And the idea of spelling reform will just make it worse. First of all, what rules do you propose to use to decide how to respell a word? I suspect you are taking for granted the idea that there will not be any controversy in deciding on a uniform and all-encompassing set of rules to apply and that the application of these rules will not create a new set of inefficiencies for the descendants of English to struggle with. And what do you propose we do with the body of written work that exists in what will become "the olde spelling?" A respelling effort will just create more separation between today's English and yesterday's English.

Ironic since it is exactly that separation which is at the root of the problem you are proposing to solve.

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Beestie

There are things about English that bother me but spelling isn't one of them.

Stupid spelling rules bother me. Like "i before e except after c." I think I have found more exceptions to this rule than applications of it.

Yes, this is a silly rule that is a waste of time. The number of words where the sequence -cei- occurs with these letters sounding like "see" aren't that many.

Here's an interesting puzzle - how many words of this kind can we find? My list has 23 such words, derived from these five root words: ceiling, conceit (including conceive etc), deceit (including deceive etc), perceive, receipt (including receive etc). (Hmm. Looking over this list, it seems odd that "perceit" isn't a word.)

So don't waste your time with i before e except after c. You're better off just remembering these five words and their derivatives, then moving on to other spellings.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Kingswood

Here's an interesting puzzle - how many words of this kind can we find? My list has 23 such words, derived from these five root words: ceiling, conceit (including conceive etc), deceit (including deceive etc), perceive, receipt (including receive etc).

Ancient.

Sufficient.

There are several more that I'll remember later.

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Ancient.
Sufficient.

There are several more that I'll remember later.

The "I before E except after C" rule is only intended to cover those words where the vowel sound is the same as in BEE. The number of words with this vowel sound are not much more than the five I listed plus derivatives, 23 in all.

The sequence -cie- occurs in about twice as many words. I'll save you time, as I have a word list that I can check quickly. Again, I will list root words only.

ancient, concierge, conscience, deficient, efficient, fancier, financier, glacier, hacienda, intricacies, omniscient, sufficient, prescient, proficient, science, scientist, society, species.

That list includes a variety of vowel sounds. Also in that list are several words where a weak vowel has been assimilated by the preceding consonant and changed the pronunciation of the consonant (ancient, efficient etc).

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Beestie

There are things about English that bother me but spelling isn't one of them.

Best post of the thread. (Not gonna quote the whole thing.)

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Beestie

And the idea of spelling reform will just make it worse. First of all, what rules do you propose to use to decide how to respell a word? I suspect you are taking for granted the idea that there will not be any controversy in deciding on a uniform and all-encompassing set of rules to apply and that the application of these rules will not create a new set of inefficiencies for the descendants of English to struggle with. And what do you propose we do with the body of written work that exists in what will become "the olde spelling?" A respelling effort will just create more separation between today's English and yesterday's English.

Ironic since it is exactly that separation which is at the root of the problem you are proposing to solve.

I do not support large changes to spelling. I am well aware that large changes to spelling would not be acceptable to the general public. This is amply shown by the indignation shown by some posters above, some of whom would rather make personal attacks than refute my more difficult points.

I do not have a particular set of rules in mind because that is something that is a work in progress.

You are incorrect when you believe I feel there won't be any controversy about the best way to decide on the changes. There are many views as to the best approach to spelling reform. These views go all the way from introducing small changes (which I advocate) to extremes such as introducing new alphabets. And some people just like to create new ways of writing English with the same spirit of fun that kids have when making up secret codes.

Your fears about being unable to read older literature are an important concern, but these fears are unfounded. With a modest reform, the familiar shapes of words won't change that much, and the changes would be relatively few. I expect that students would be taught to read the old spellings alongside the new. This is a plausible approach because it takes less time to learn a word with an irregular spelling well enough to read it than it takes to reproduce its spelling faithfully.

Seriously, for fuck's sake, just read a fucking book on the origins of English, STFU, and learn Spanish if it bothers you that badly.

Really, READ A FUCKING BOOK cures 99% of the world's ills. The rest of them are cured by GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE AND TAKE A FUCKING WALK.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Really, READ A FUCKING BOOK cures 99% of the world's ills. The rest of them are cured by GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE AND TAKE A FUCKING WALK.

Ah. Someone is pissed. I hope it gets better, TikiSwiti.

Here:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Ah. Someone is pissed. I hope it gets better, TikiSwiti.

Here:

Actually, yesterday was great. Thanks though!

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Beestie

It bothers me that there is no second-person plural pronoun.

Down here in the South, we have corrected this problem. Y'all should get with the program, already.

[DanaC]

We just use 'youse' amongst my lot.

[Happy Monkey]

Ghoti

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Ghoti

Or in Klingon: ghotI'