4/12/2006: Ellsworth AFB foam test

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by mitheral

I posted it to metachat.org and I think someone picked it up from there and slapped it up on MetaFilter. A MetaFiltering isn't quite as bad as a /.ing but it isn't insignificant either.

At one point there were over 8,000 sites linking to it.

[capnhowdy]

damn Fly Boys........

[KrazFD]

I must say comphappy, you came here pretty hostile.

I found the pictures hilarious, and even after finding out the real story, it was still hilarious.

[Kagen4o4]

and i keep saying you fly boys crack me up!!

[Kagen4o4]

hahaha nice one comp. its just what i imagined

[xoxoxoBruce]

Damn, gen131. I hope you don't give orders that long......everyone would have to learn shorthand.

Comphappy was a little testy, but I assumed this wasn't his first stop. UT said something like 8,000 sites were linking those pictures, so there's a good chance he'd been reading plenty of derogatory remarks about the Air Force and the military in general, before he got here.
I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, anyway.

[zippyt]

Gen131 said "If you were to show a tone of aggression or disrespect, you would quickly find yourself crunching out pushups with your feet up on the side of one of those fancy B-1 tires at least 4 feet off the ground until I get tired.
If you were to call me an A**hole or anything of the such using a vulgar and unprofessional language, you would definately find yourself with a nice round of consructive and corrective activity."

MOUNTIN CLIMBERS MOTHER FUCKER , GO !!!!!!!

Try saying that shit to a GUNNERY SGT in the USMC , See how far it goes .
I DON'T think you would like the out come , AT ALL !!!!!!!

Oh and comphappy DON'T be going off on Bruce ( YA Byotch!!!!! ) ,
In the cellar he is an E8-9 !!! (in my hummble opinion )

[Weasel Keeper]

To gen131: This is a good scene. It reminds me of my old days in the USAF. This link was forwarded to me from a guy who is a retired US Navy Finance Officer.

Well, now that I am a little bit older and have some bugs on my teeth traveling through life, I have to agree with your take on discipline.

When I was young and a skull full of mush, I did not have much of a clue. As time has passed and I can look back on my time in service, I would not trade it for anything in the world. At the time, it seemed to not be the case, but it is true. There is nothing like comradery and team spirit/cohesion. I have never ever have found it since with any place I have worked. So my hats off to the folks who are willing to stick it out and put up with the juveniles.

Dispite the comments to one another, this is stuff that you will take with you for the rest of your life. I can not tell you how many great people who I have met that have served in different branches from WWII forward and the stories they have shared. NOTHING HAS CHANGED! Just the people and the calendar on the wall.

I have a friend who was volunteer SS from Deutschland. He was a volunteer at 15, yes Hitler youth, the whole nine yards. I have had the opportunity to even hold and read his files and some of specialty ceremonial daggers, etc.

He was a prisoner of war in the English Occupation. He told me stories of reality, showed me pictures of the truth of it over there, you youngsters should befriend some of these old guys, you could learn a lot more than the crap that they force feed you on TV or at school.

One really profound thing he told me was "All living creatures need three things, Food, Companionship & Shelter, and it is not always in that order either, nothing else, everything else is extra, in the regards to living and dying". VERY POWERFULL AND TRUE WORDS.

THINK ABOUT THEM.

His reply about WWII, "What a waste, brother against brother". He has a tremendous respect for life despite what folks want to think of the word "SS".

He was a soldier just like you and he was doing his job. He told me about the unit cohesion with the Officers and the Enlisted. They were tight, yet with discipline and respect for their grade. They ate, slept and died together. TEAM WORK.

He was in a group of youth that came out of basic at the end of the war. They asked for 300 volunteers for SS duty. His job was to destroy tanks. He was sent to Denmark. All of the rest went to the battle of Berlin. He knows of no survivors of that event in history.

He tells me stories of starvation after the war. There was the time he was crawling along in the gravel road bed of the railroad tracks looking for corn kernels in the full moonlight that fell off the cars just so he had something to eat. Eating anything that moved, cats, etc. Finding dead horses, etc and having to butcher them. You have no clue until you've been there. I know I haven't, but I can sure imagine. Things are a lot more fragile than you can know.

So, yes, when the crap is flyin' you better make sure you know whos got your back. It is better to be friends with mutual respect than to be something else. TEAM WORK, it is what it is all about and that is what makes the USAF great!

Thanks for reading my post. And for the folks who don't get it and want to respond with little thought, well, I am sorry that you can't be reached.

Weasel Keeper of GAFB - Ghosts of the Cold War

[Kagen4o4]

this thread has been ruined. it started off as a funny situation and has turned in something serious.

SHAME SHAME SHAME

[xoxoxoBruce]

Welcome to the Cellar, Weasel Keeper. Interesting insight into the military and humanity.
Your SS buddy's story shows exactly what's wrong with the blind, gung ho attitude, the military builds. By the time this kid (15?) got into action, the war was lost. His friends died in Berlin, needlessly. What a waste, indeed.

[Kagen4o4]

well... over 350,000 views and only 60 replies. thats more than the "what the fuck" thread. if you google "ellsworth foam test" you get the Cellar as the number one site.

good shit

[FireFightingMan]

Ok, to get the obvious out of the way, this is really funny, especially the images of the foam releasing out of the hangar.

Now for the serious part: I've been a firefighter for...a while, and I joined the Cellar just so I could reply to some of the crap on this post. As somebody else pointed out, the foam is AFFF, typically used to suppress ignition of combustible fluids (more on that in a moment), especially JP and gasoline, where the vapors are explosive and heavier than air (thus they can obtain a vapor density sufficient to be combustible). The goal of AFFF is NOT to combine with (i.e. emulsify) the fluid but to sit on top of it and smother the fire by dispersing the vapors and limiting atmospheric esposure to the liquid, which limits evaporation, which means it can't burn (I'm skipping the Junior Chemistry on exothermic oxidation reactions ). The surface tension of the bubbles further suppresses other chemical reactions which can allow spontaneous oxidation and combustion (in other words, some emulsification is a good thing). Of course, the mass of the foam and the relative temperature differential also plays a significant part in limiting oxidation as well. So, for those of you who just had the lightbulb go off in your head, yes AFFF is also effective at suppressing class "A" fires. The reason it isn't more widely used for class "A" fires (structure fires, in particular) is a complicated issue, although apparatus manufacturers (most notably Pierce) has been trying to convince more fire companies of the significant advantages of fighting all class A and B fires with AFFF. My recollection (although someone else can correct me on this) is that AFFF is NOT electrically conductive and therefore can also be used on class "C" fires. Again, I don't know that for sure. Class "D" fires (combustible metals) are not candidates for suppression with AFFF.

Anyway, AFFF is typically fractioned at 1-4%, depending on the situation and application, although some fractioners only disperse AFFF at one concentration for ease of use. Can you suffocate in this stuff? Hell yes. You are in soap suds, but dense soap suds, not like the stuff on the top of your bubble bath. As you can see from the runoff from the hangar, and the dispersal pattern from the nozzles, there is a significant density to the solution, which means significant air displacement, and thus significant fire suppression and cooling. I have never been in AFFF of a depth even approaching 1m (espcially in a confined space), so I can't tell you what the differential is between the top and bottom. At the depth of the solution in the hangar it would be impossible to carve out a significant air pocket to ensure survival. The good news is that you are a lot more likely to survive an AFFF near-drowning than you are a flashover.

This system was surely modified after this test to limit the total flow to ensure that a situation like the one illustrated for the test ever occurred, in case it was impossible for personnel to evacuate the hangar, or to release the foam.

Oh, and one other thing: yes, AFFF is essntially dish soap, although I believe it also contains a surfactant to ensure consistent bubble size. Being cheap by nature (AFFF is expensive), most of us in our department have acquired old Class "A" fire extinguishers (water cans) and have filled them with homemade AFFF (check the net for a recipe that suits you - I use a general purpose one because I don't know if I'll be first-on-scene at a car fire with entrapment or a brush fire).

Anyway, to repeat, the pictures are damn funny.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hey thanks, FireFightingMan.
If I do the net recipe and stick it in my water extinguisher, what makes it foam when it comes out, just being forced through the nozzle at speed?

Welcome to USAvetUSAFspouse, too.

[FireFightingMan]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If I do the net recipe and stick it in my water extinguisher, what makes it foam when it comes out, just being forced through the nozzle at speed?

Hey, Bruce. You will get some foaming action on contact just by the force of the straight stream. However, I prefer to shake my can several times (usually while running to whatever I'm trying to put out) to ensure that I have some bubbles already in the mix.

Two things on this point: 1) You don't have an aerating nozzle on a water can. You have a straight-tip nozzle. Therefore you are not going to get the same quality foam you would if you were able to introduce air to the system as you go (the system that Pierce recommends, called CAFS introduces compressed air to the mix in your truck as it comes out of your pump, meaning that you already have foam started in the hand line, even though you might have a conventional straight-tip or combination nozzle instead of a foam nozzle). You can improve your foam by modifying your straight tip on your can to be a venturi, although I don't recommend that. 2) Just for illustration on how effective just adding soap and/or surfactant can be without modifying the nozzle, most Essentials classes (the first firefighting class someone takes) include a session where a class B fire is started in a large pan (about 6x6), and the firefighter is given a water can and ordered to extinguish the fire. Most people can extinguish the fire with one or two cans with just water (although keeping the fire from flaring up is difficult, and some trainees take three or four cans to keep the fire out). HOWEVER, with the addition of a foaming agent (AFFF, or insert your home brew here), almost all trainees are able to extinguish the fire with ONE can, AND the mix becomes extremely difficult to reignite for the next trainee.

So the REALLY long answer to your question is...you might not get "good" foam, but it appears to be good enough, and considering how cheap it is to obtain an "old" can from a fire extinguisher dealer (everyone who I know that has asked has been given one for free), fill and pressurize it (you can do it yourself since you have all the ingredients and a water can is charged with an average air hose), and the volume of agent that you can put in a can compared to your average dry chem extinguisher it's a great way to go, at least for the people I know who have seen a fire or two.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'll leave the image of you shaking your can, to the ladies.

Class B fires, flammable liquids and gases, solvents, oils, greases (excluding cooking oils/greases in depth) tars, oil-based paints and lacquers, (yeah, I had to check) keep flaring up because the fumes are reignited by what's still burning? Do they stop flaring once the flames are completely extinguished?
I guess the AFFF would suppress the flammable vapors from reforming while you get the flames beaten down.