Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[Cyclefrance]

I'm finding it hard to keep up with this thread. Maybe that's a reflection of how convoluted the problem is, or, perhaps more likely, how old I am getting! Trying to disentangle who is right and who is wrong based on what has happened in the past seems pointless to me. If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits. We're pretty good at carving up other people's land - look what we did in Ireland and we've only relatively recently extricated ourselves from the mess that caused. Still we did resolve it to a degree that has held firm for a good few years now, so there should always be hope. To move forward in such situations, though, you have to draw a line on what has gone before, however unpalatable that may seem.

I was essentially trying to get across some simplified messages or observations if you like. For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. I know that's a rather naive sounding thing to say given the atrocities that are created throughout the world, but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so. And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side. The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here, certainly on a domestic level, and this is mainly down to a small number of organisations that use the scope that current technology permits to provide a platform for people to join together to voice their disapproval. When the voice of disapproval grows big enough, loud enough then, perhaps surprisingly (perhaps not given it doesn't want to alienate its electorate) our government has been seen to act in ways that show that it does apparently listen.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post. I certainly don't think people here are ignorant so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression. I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really, but I will be back on some, just not tonight. Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!