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Old 09-19-2020, 12:18 PM   #361
BigV
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Testing is ongoing and has a fixed schedule based on science and rules that can't be circumvented

don't go antivax to own dear leader, blood will be on your hands
Trump already has blood on his hands.

His blithe disregard for science, rules, really anything that doesn't appear to immediately advance his own interests led him to avoid making choices and taking actions that would have saved many thousands of lives. His most used and most effective tool is his mouth. Both the power of the bully pulpit and his native, epic talent for talking and talking and talking. He used that tool, his words, to ill effect, repeatedly and vigorously, flying in the face of science, flouting rules, and basically talking shit (so much shit) and people died as a result.

Trump's main effort is to control the narrative. He wants those who hear him to believe him, and consider no other sources of information. This crisis has been his kryptonite because the virus is immune to his talk. It can't be intimidated or shouted down or gaslighted. This put Trump at an unexpected and serious disadvantage. His super tool was and is ineffective.

Remember when he gave instructions that hospitals around the country were to stop sending their epidemiological information to the CDC and were told to send it to the white house office instead? Remember when his political appointee was asserting editorial control over the "scientific" reports from the CDC? These are the efforts to control the narrative, irrespective of the facts.

This is the naked politicization of the health crisis.

He tried and failed to spin it away. Trump's hands are covered with blood.
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Old 09-19-2020, 12:53 PM   #362
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So (needle pulling thread), he did a good job of thinning the herd when there weren't enough resources to go around. Some Presidents send people off to war while others let nature take its toll. Presidents get paid to do that balancing act. I've never been a fan of the war option: it takes away the young and able. Letting the old and weak fall by the wayside, knowing that you can't make all of the people happy all of the time, would seem to be in the best interest of future generations. Those who make it so are our unsung heroes.



Bwahahaha!
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Old 09-19-2020, 12:54 PM   #363
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NY Times COVID vaccine tracker

40 vaccines are in human clinical trials. Nine are in Phase 3. (Three of those are Chinese companies, so we might rule them out? But they are being tested in other countries. All three Chinese vaccines are approved for limited human use.)

Three vaccines not from Chinese companies are nearly ready. They won't be widely available by the end of 2020 because manufacturing, but one or two may well be released. Pfizer figures their studies will be complete next month.
Pfizer can claim their Phase III testing is "complete" and submit for approval whenever they want. And the FDA can decide to approve it for release if they want. But historically, Phase III has always been expected by the FDA to take a bare minimum of 1 year. Those are the rules that supposedly can't be circumvented, but if a vaccine passes out of Phase III in less than 1 year, then they have indeed been circumvented.
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:01 PM   #364
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But of course, domestic Kobayashi Maru goes hand-in-hand with Cowboy Diplomacy. It's a given.
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:19 PM   #365
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But historically, Phase III has always been expected by the FDA to take a bare minimum of 1 year.
one year is not "the rule" it's a guideline for vaccine development when not in a pandemic. the CDC link suggests 300-3000 participants, which you might expect if you don't have so many possible positive results because the studies are not done during a pandemic. but right now we do have plenty of data points. current phase 3 studies include 30,000 participants and more
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:46 PM   #366
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More volunteers helps measure effectiveness more quickly, but the length of time itself is a critical function of the safety testing, just like 9 women can't make a baby in one month. If, say, a drug causes cancer, you won't know that in 3 months, no matter how many people take it. And it can certainly be argued that cutting corners is worth it, given that COVID is already killing people right now. But it can't be argued that corners weren't cut if the standard length of time for safety testing is shortened.
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Old 09-19-2020, 02:34 PM   #367
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The standard length of time for testing isn't a lifetime; so, corners are already being cut. You can argue the probability of safety may change; but, not that corners weren't already being cut and now it's just a matter of degree. Look at all the approved drugs that were subsequently taken off the market.
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Old 09-19-2020, 02:57 PM   #368
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If, say, a drug causes cancer, you won't know that in 3 months, no matter how many people take it.
nor in a year. thread's yours.
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Old 09-19-2020, 03:25 PM   #369
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The standard length of time for testing isn't a lifetime; so, corners are already being cut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
nor in a year.
Fair enough. Everyone has to balance their own risk, for sure.
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Old 09-19-2020, 04:08 PM   #370
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Quote:
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one year is not "the rule" it's a guideline for vaccine development when not in a pandemic. the CDC link suggests 300-3000 participants, which you might expect if you don't have so many possible positive results because the studies are not done during a pandemic. but right now we do have plenty of data points. current phase 3 studies include 30,000 participants and more
But Trump has castrated the CDC with all information and direction coming from Washington.
The FDA has the power of approval...

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And the FDA says this is what you should do but it's nonbinding.

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The wiggle room is explained in section VIII A & B. Right, section 8.

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Translation - We told you the right way to do it.
But we like our jobs so when the word comes down we say, how high?
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Old 09-19-2020, 04:27 PM   #371
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What does that have to do with the price of COVID-19 vaccine in China?
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Old 09-20-2020, 11:01 AM   #372
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What does that have to do with the price of COVID-19 vaccine in China?
Why does a price of tea in China have relevance?
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Old 09-20-2020, 11:09 AM   #373
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Why not?
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