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Old 06-21-2019, 07:48 PM   #76
lumberjim
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This could have been the answer to a different question. Elderly folks have a certain peace about them. Have you noticed? Not all of them. Some are nutty in one way or another, but most.

I'm thinking maybe they get that from going through the loss of the self esteem they derived from the abilities or attributes that turned out to be impermanent. So maybe once you are forced to stop identifying with your ego, you can calm the fuck down some. If I could have the wisdom of the elderly while I'm still vital, I'd sign up for that.

I liked the end where he says going through suffering is an easier way of discovering this kind of thing than it is if things are rolling along smoothly.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:19 AM   #77
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This could have been the answer to a different question. Elderly folks have a certain peace about them. Have you noticed?
That's because we can kill you, a life sentence is a joke.
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Old 06-22-2019, 12:50 PM   #78
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I kind of thought it was because you've realized that it's all bullshit at the end of the day. All these thoughts we think. Mental constructs and opinions. What's really left after that is just being.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:13 PM   #79
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Old people reflect on what used to was, and glow with good memories or rage against the injustice of what has been lost.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:37 PM   #80
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I feel like I'm rowing upstream.
The guy is large, he is going across a ton of topics... he may be best in video form

From just before 2 minutes in, he presents his most fundamental ideas, which is where he's most Tolle-esque

He presents the yin/yang as chaos/order, and meaning as the place where both exist. "Meaning is not a rational phenomenon. We detect it without being, not with our intellect... which it should guide, rather than follow."

The slides are a little distracting IMO... he's become a much better speaker since this

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Old 06-22-2019, 06:52 PM   #81
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I think the slides round out his meaning quite effectively. Particularly the one where he instructs you to watch yourself as though you don't know much about you.

It may take me some time to get through his book, but I will. It's counterpoint to the simplicity of tolle, so I think it's important that I do. Tolle is easy. Almost too easy. Can it be that simple? In times of crisis, I think yes. But in 6 months when this crisis fades, will it still speak to me? History suggests no. I got on with my life after the divorce had washed over me and I forgot to practice awareness in the moment.

Perhaps..... Um. Maybe I need to train the ego AND the Id to get along.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:37 PM   #82
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… Particularly the one where he instructs you to watch yourself as though you don't know much about you. ...
The part of the brain that reacts when we think about friends also reacts when we think about ourselves. The part of the brain that reacts when we think about strangers reacts when we think about our future selves. We see our future selves more as strangers because it's difficult for us to imagine ourselves 10, 20, 30 years from now due to all the variables we know can exist.

So (a needle pulling thread), imagining future you can help you to watch yourself as though you don't know much about you now. The power of future, now.

Ironic isn't it
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #83
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Future me is my higher power. I want to make him proud.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:13 AM   #84
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A Man Said to the Universe
By Stephen Crane (1871-1900)

A man said to the universe:
“Sir, I exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”
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Old 06-23-2019, 05:54 AM   #85
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Neil deGrasse Tyson says something very similar.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:38 AM   #86
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I'm on rule 4.

Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today.

Right now he's discussing past and future. Says almost in passing that the present moment is eternally flawed. That without that assumption, we would never strive to improve. In a previous chapter, he talked about people at the bottom living in the moment out of laziness and contentment with their lousy lot in life... People more likely to indulge in momentary relief of drugs and alcohol because they're not concerned with the consequence, just the immediate relief from their pain.

Sounds like good argument against Tolle's Now.

I think the balance comes when you can get your hands around Tolle's technique, and have the ability to be self aware on the level below all this psychology and ego constructed tendency to win or lose at life, but give the appropriate attention to the real world concerns Peterson is trying to provide guidance for.

Both espouse seeing yourself objectively. Tolle strips it all away by constantly reminding you that the real you is not the mentally constructed collection of life experience, trauma, or kind upbringing, but rather the container that holds it. This makes all the intricate detailed reasoning about why we think like we do irrelevant.

However, most of us will not be motivated to attempt to disassociate with it unless we experience some kind of intense suffering. No sense fleeing the building if it's not on fire.

Even when you do have a fire and need to flee, the fire eventually burns itself out, or is extinguished by your awareness and presence. And then you go back to identifying with this slightly better equipped version of your Self, which now knows how to handle loss or grief or anger or resentment.... But, unless you're going to drop out of your life and spend your days as a guru teaching others to find themselves, you need to moderate the time you spend with an empty head just as you need to watch your thoughts.

Just being aware that your mind is a tool, not who you are.... Really knowing that, which isn't easy or natural feeling... You have to keep a constant watch on your reactions to things.... But just knowing that prevents your mind from using you instead of you using your mind.

I really would like to see these two converse.
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Old 06-23-2019, 11:14 AM   #87
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Yessir! Peterson is all about Jung, which is all about that last bit - it's "shadow integration" which is where you learn to see your unconscious inner self and learn to integrate it, work with it, instead of having it control you. I think they would be in agreement about all that.

It would be a great conversation. I think it will happen, now that Tolle is approaching the circle where these talks are taking place.

~

I have been thinking hard about rule 2 "Treat Yourself Like Someone You Are Responsible For Helping", because I do see all the people in my life treating themselves terribly, and I have seen myself treat myself terribly, and I want to understand why. I don't feel like the chapter has answered this for me. My friend Judi not treating her cancer. My J avoiding treating her sleep apnea - she's fallen asleep at the wheel, twice that I know of. My friends who drink every single day. My friend Thom who allowed his mother's death to give himself nothing but self-inflicted pain for two years. Ripley and all the suicidal people. And me, allowing myself to fall down various self-destructive rabbit holes. Why do we hate ourselves so much? Nobody in our lives wants us to do that.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:09 PM   #88
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UT, this response is tailored for you:

Sometimes the experts don't quite give us what we're looking for. It's not for lack of trying, it's just that they may lack the personal experience necessary to address everything that relates. There's a whole other world out there; however, comprised of advanced amateurs who have the experience you're looking for and, like yourself, have sought out the experts' frameworks to put it in. I found one that may have done some of the legwork for you.

I think you'll at least find the writing style entertaining and hopefully its content close to what you're looking for. An enticement:

Quote:
… We all have dreams we’ve failed to live up to, ideals we’ve failed to embody, actions we wish we had or hadn’t done, ways in which we wish we could be different. This is normal. And we all must deal with these parts of ourselves that we don’t exactly like. Some of us deal with it through avoidance — we sleepwalk through life, never making any serious decisions, following others, and avoiding all difficult tasks or confrontations. Some of us deal with it by numbing ourselves with sex or substances or obsession or distraction. Others try to overcompensate by trying to save the world and bring about a utopia and maybe start another World War in the process.

The goal here isn’t to get rid of that self-loathing. The only way to do that would be to remove our consciences and/or become psychopaths. And we don’t want that. ...
A convenience link to an entertaining self-description page by the author. It sounds like you may have some traits in common: About

Last edited by sexobon; 06-23-2019 at 03:15 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-23-2019, 04:23 PM   #89
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It's broader than just me man. The question at hand is one the guy states, himself:

"self-hatred is just part of the human condition"

Why is that the case? There are a lot of behaviors built in to humans. Why is there both a wild instinct for self-preservation and a general tendency for most of us to hold ourselves in contempt?

"I desperately want to live. But I do not deserve to." Wha?
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Old 06-23-2019, 05:21 PM   #90
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Long term (evolution) vs short term (conditioning) conflicts exist because we're social animals. We're being influenced by others who may be enhancing; or, degrading the built in behaviors that give us the flexibility to succeed both in situations requiring instinctive behavior and those requiring self-reflection. That balance can become skewed. That's the human condition. There are ways to restore that balance in ourselves individually when the situations and/or social groups we're in aren't doing it for us.
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