"She", not "he", guys

[Aliantha]

Gee, I thought I'd sorted this whole mess out last night!

[John Sellers]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

I don't care for John yet. Perhaps the new and improved one will grow on me.

Frankly, I don't care if anyone here likes me. Ima be me.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Vote number 2 in favor of Henry Quirk as "Troll of 2012". Still a long way to go on the year, he may out do himself, or another semi dweller may up the ante before Xmas. I reserve the right to vote again later in the year.

That is humor, you may recognize that.

[John Sellers]

I vote Henry Quirk simply as "Coward" cuz it refused to answer my very logically valid questions.

[regular.joe]

John, you must hate shit like Bell's Theorem.

[henry quirk]

If Ibram pretends to be a woman, there is no cost to me.

If I -- knowing Ibram is male -- pretend he's a 'she' then I lie (to myself) and in the lie, I diminish myself, to myself.

That Ibram lies to himself is irrelevant to me: that I lie to myself to make Ibram feel good is a high price I won't pay.

[henry quirk]

If I demand to be called 'Lord God Quirk', will you comply?

I'm no more a 'lord' or a 'god' than Ibram is a woman, but his demand is complied with, so, why not mine?

Because to do so makes you a liar and a bit of an idiot.

So, if you lie and engage in idiocy calling me 'Lord God Quirk', then, maybe, you lie and engage in idiocy calling a 'he' a 'she'.

But: do as you like...I certainly will.


And: If Ibram is secure in his self-definition, then it shouldn't matter if some jackass refuses to call him 'her'.

That he is so offended by my lack of compliance says a lot about his insecurity, and, if he 'is' so insecure perhaps he should have kept the self redefining under wraps till he could stride forth in nylons and not give a damn what any one has to say.

*shrug*

[henry quirk]

Agreed. But, to be of any use: language should accurately describe external reality.

Calling a boy 'girl' (just 'cause the boy insists) is not an accurate description of external reality.

Ibram may be accurately describing the contents of his head with 'she', but his subjective assessment doesn't trump the reality that 'he' (nothing more than a descriptor for *maleness) is not 'she' (nothing more than a descriptor for *femaleness).









*both, fundamentally, matters of DNA and therefore independent of Ibram’s self-definition.

[henry quirk]

[Undertoad]

both, fundamentally, matters of DNA and therefore independent of Ibram’s self-definition

Of course, if transsexualism has a biological component, then it is not independent of the DNA.

[henry quirk]

"if transsexualism has a biological component, then it is not independent of the DNA"

Sure. I await the evidence. If there is -- biologically -- a 'third sex', I'll happily adopt whatever pronouns are needed. Unfortunately, for Ibram, those pronouns won't be related to 'she' any more than 'he'.

#

"I'm sure you're not suggesting that all our life choices are only defensible if they are biologically bound."

I'm not suggesting that any one has to defend anything.

Again: that Ibram chooses to define himself as 'girl' is of no concern to me.

I haven't demanded he justify himself (his choices) to me or any one.

I simply point out that he is 'he' and I won't be calling him 'she'.

Other folks lay atop my assertion all manner of presumed agenda.

They're wrong but what the hey. Each should continue to assess me as each cares to.

I no more care about being called, for example, troll, than I care how Ibram self-defines.

[Undertoad]

Sure. I await the evidence. If there is -- biologically -- a 'third sex', I'll happily adopt whatever pronouns are needed. Unfortunately, for Ibram, those pronouns won't be related to 'she' any more than 'he'.

You agree, then that it is possible there is a biological component, and that TSs should be treated differently by you if there is.


~ voila, the middle ground, people! was that so difficult? ~


What if it's not DNA -- what if some condition is set up in the mother's womb which sets up the fetus to have feminine tendencies of some sort? Tendencies that make the emerging personality question its gender and identify with a different gender?

[BrianR]

Not quite proof positive, but pretty close!

[Lord God Quirk]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

If I demand to be called 'Lord God Quirk', will you comply?

I'm sorry. That user name is in use.

[henry quirk]

UT, as I said 'I await the evidence'...till then: 'he'.

"what if some condition is set up in the mother's womb which sets up the fetus to have feminine tendencies of some sort?"

See below.

#

Brian, I note in the title, 'Gender-Related Disorders'.

I note in the piece:


It has been hypothesized that prenatal DES exposure may also have led to behavioral effects in humans (Meyer-Bahlburg and Erhardt, 1986; Meyer-Bahlburg, et al., 1995). Primary studies exploring possible behavioral and psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure in males first appeared in the literature during the 1970s. DES exposure has been associated with increased potential for major depressive disorders and other psychiatric effects in males (Katz, et al., 1987; Meyer-Bahlburg et al., 1985; Pillard et al., 1993; Saunders, 1988; Vessey et al., 1983). Recent discussions of potential psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure, including gender-related effects and schizophrenia, have been presented by Verdoux (2000; 2004) and Boog (2004). Verdoux summarizes the research on DES in the psychiatric literature this way:

Sparse findings suggest that exposure to xenoestrogens such as diethylstilbestrol may be a risk factor for psychiatric disorders, mediated by a possible deleterious impact of the substances on foetal neurodevelopment, but this hypothesis is speculative owing to the small number of studies and their methodological limitations (Verdoux, 2004).

...and...

•Among the most significant findings from this study is the high prevalence of individuals with confirmed or strongly suspected prenatal DES exposure who self-identify as male-to-female transsexual or transgender, and individuals who have reported experiencing difficulties with gender dysphoria.
In this study, more than 150 individuals with confirmed or suspected prenatal DES exposure reported moderate to severe feelings of gender dysphoria across the lifespan. For most, these feelings had apparently been present since early childhood. The prevalence of a significant number of self-identified male-to-female transsexuals and transgendered individuals as well as some individuals who identify as intersex, androgynous, gay or bisexual males has inspired fresh investigation of historic theories about a possible biological/endocrine basis for psychosexual development in humans, including sexual orientation, core gender identity, and sexual identity (Benjamin, 1973; Cohen-Kettenis and Gooren, 1999; Diamond, 1965, 1996; Michel et al, 2001; Swaab, 2004).


Let's assume for the moment Ibram is one of the individuals affected in the womb by xenoestrogens. To my thinking this simply means Ibram is a boy with a disorder, not a member of a 'third sex'.

Nice try though...

For a 'third sex' to have the same the weight as 'male' and female' it must be natural, not the result of disorder or exposure to chemicals (natural or artificial introduced abnormally to the womb).

And, before anyone reacts badly: no, I in no way suggest the disordered boy should be 'fixed'. Again: I don't care how he live or self-defines...I simply choose not participate in that self-definition.