What is a hobby breeder? - Page 3

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 01:57 AM

Then the business of hobby breeders matters not so much, but the puppy mills do, and so taxing them to make them not as profitable is good.

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 02:18 AM

No, Im not really trusting the government, Im trusting the process.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 02:20 AM

What process is that, other than the government making laws?

Pico and ME · 03-22-2009, 02:23 AM

The process of people making and adjusting the laws.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 02:59 AM

Oh, the legislators. Of all the state and federal legislators that make these laws, I wonder how many know anything about hobby breeders... or puppy mills except "everyone" knows they are bad? Not many, I'll bet.

So how can they write, or even make an informed decision to vote on a law about it? They have a staff member or more often a professional law writer do it.

This professional writer knows how laws (bills) must be structured so all they have to do is gather the information of what needs to be in the law.
Where do they get this information? Tons and tons of research... or a friendly lobbyist that presents the package all ready to use... no muss, no fuss, quick money plus perks.

But then the law (bill) goes back to the legislator and he checks it out to see that it's what he wanted, right? No, he reads the synopsis the pro law writer provides. No sense in reading the whole thing, it's long, boring and the legislator never understood what should be in it in the first place.

Lots of laws get killed before they come to a vote because it didn't say what the legislator though it was supposed to. If it's a subject that's really contentious, the opposition will pick it apart. But puppy mills?, "everyone" knows they're bad, so no contention there.
That's how unintended consequences get made law, that may or may not be repealed... eventually.

All this was explained to me by a professional law(bill) writer I used to know, and I've seen it in action too damn many times.

Sundae · 03-22-2009, 05:45 AM

Why do I think I walked in half way through a conversation?

My 2 cents anyway.
I was anti pure-bred animals for a long time.
All I could see were dogs that had been bred into fearsome shapes, being bought for a fortune, while other dogs were killed for want of space - unwanted, unloved but dogs nonetheless.

Then I started looking into pedigree cats, because none of the cat homes in Leicester would let me adopt a moggie because I lived on a busy road and wanted to keep it inside. Then I met Diz & Dylan. Okay, they're not as mutated as some pedigree dogs. But their character is a million miles away from any other cat I know. I adore Diz (and still grieve daily over Dylan).

I know this has nothing to do with your conversation, which I assume came about because of some new law in the States. But I got my boys from a responsible breeder, and Diz is the light of my life. I know she made no profit out of the transaction - she was selling them because she'd kept too many cats out of love, and two neutered boys were easier to part with. Would I have paid more for them, to give the Govt a cut? No. I couldn't afford it then or now. Would I gve every penny I have now (okay, that's not much!) to save my boy? Yes.

Keep the Govt out of everything it doesn't need to be in. And that's coming from a socialist living in a fascist regime.

morethanpretty · 03-22-2009, 11:06 AM

There are not enough responsible hobby breeders, there are way too many puppy mills, or kitten mills. Although I think we probably have less of a problem with purebred kittens/cats. If you go to a flea-market (or trades day), go to the animal section, I bet you 99% of those purebred puppies bein sold, are from puppy mills. This is wrong. Unfortunately people are greedy and consumers are stupid, so they will not regulate themselves in mass. If you don't want the government to step in to protect our animals, then you have to change the society's mindset. That happens alot more slowly than it takes to change laws (which is often too slow of a process as it is). So yes, I am in perfect agreement that sometimes it takes harsh measures to patrol the misbehaving, that also constrain the people who would otherwise behave.
On further note, I do not necessarily agree with the law in PA about only a vet being allowed to kill an animal. At the same time I see its usefullness, if the same situation happens again the law has a recourse to further prosecute the offenders.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 12:16 PM

Want the government to step in to protect our animals? There is no our animals. My animals don't need the government, and I doubt your animals do either.

I also don't believe the government needs to protect BusterB's dogs, although people on this board gave him shit for keeping a dog outside. I would imagine there are plenty of people living in condos and high rise apartments, with little frou-frou dogs, that are appalled at the idea of a dog kept outside. I don't want those people making the rules.

Everyone has their own visions of what a puppy mill is, mostly from news reports of dogs treated so badly it turns your stomach. We all agree that must be stopped, but where does the governments authority end?

What about breeder that treats the dogs well, but cranks out more puppies than there is a market for, driving the price down? Or walmart bringing in Chinese puppies by the boatload, driving responsible breeders out of business? What is the governments responsibility there?

We should trust the government to do a wonderful job with puppies like they've done with children?

DanaC · 03-22-2009, 11:53 AM

Consumers aren't necessarily stupid, they may just be uniformed. My family bought from a kennels that almost certainly used puppy farm breeders for stock. We weren't stupid we just didn't know better at the time.

TheMercenary · 03-22-2009, 02:21 PM

The problem is all those dogs on the Southern border sneaking in other dogs. Damm border collies or something.

jinx · 03-22-2009, 06:51 PM

I don't understand the need for more laws... The "mill" animals are more akin to livestock than pets or companion animals anyway. Why aren't the USDA inspectors all over these places already? You can't treat cows, sheep, or even chickens this way...

xoxoxoBruce · 03-22-2009, 07:37 PM

Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food?

TheMercenary · 03-22-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food?

I am pretty sure they are only involved in the very front end of the industry. Once they leave for the small butchers they don't get into the inspection.

ZenGum · 03-22-2009, 08:12 PM

I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work.

We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down.

Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them.

classicman · 03-22-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work.

We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down.

Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them.

Only thing left to work out is how to pay for it... maybe they could put a tax or something on each female bred.

03-22-2009, 02:20 AM	#3
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	What process is that, other than the government making laws? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 02:59 AM	#5
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Oh, the legislators. Of all the state and federal legislators that make these laws, I wonder how many know anything about hobby breeders... or puppy mills except "everyone" knows they are bad? Not many, I'll bet. So how can they write, or even make an informed decision to vote on a law about it? They have a staff member or more often a professional law writer do it. This professional writer knows how laws (bills) must be structured so all they have to do is gather the information of what needs to be in the law. Where do they get this information? Tons and tons of research... or a friendly lobbyist that presents the package all ready to use... no muss, no fuss, quick money plus perks. But then the law (bill) goes back to the legislator and he checks it out to see that it's what he wanted, right? No, he reads the synopsis the pro law writer provides. No sense in reading the whole thing, it's long, boring and the legislator never understood what should be in it in the first place. Lots of laws get killed before they come to a vote because it didn't say what the legislator though it was supposed to. If it's a subject that's really contentious, the opposition will pick it apart. But puppy mills?, "everyone" knows they're bad, so no contention there. That's how unintended consequences get made law, that may or may not be repealed... eventually. All this was explained to me by a professional law(bill) writer I used to know, and I've seen it in action too damn many times. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 05:45 AM	#6
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Why do I think I walked in half way through a conversation? My 2 cents anyway. I was anti pure-bred animals for a long time. All I could see were dogs that had been bred into fearsome shapes, being bought for a fortune, while other dogs were killed for want of space - unwanted, unloved but dogs nonetheless. Then I started looking into pedigree cats, because none of the cat homes in Leicester would let me adopt a moggie because I lived on a busy road and wanted to keep it inside. Then I met Diz & Dylan. Okay, they're not as mutated as some pedigree dogs. But their character is a million miles away from any other cat I know. I adore Diz (and still grieve daily over Dylan). I know this has nothing to do with your conversation, which I assume came about because of some new law in the States. But I got my boys from a responsible breeder, and Diz is the light of my life. I know she made no profit out of the transaction - she was selling them because she'd kept too many cats out of love, and two neutered boys were easier to part with. Would I have paid more for them, to give the Govt a cut? No. I couldn't afford it then or now. Would I gve every penny I have now (okay, that's not much!) to save my boy? Yes. Keep the Govt out of everything it doesn't need to be in. And that's coming from a socialist living in a fascist regime. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

03-22-2009, 11:06 AM	#7
morethanpretty Thats "Miss Zipper Neck" to you. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: little town (but not the littlest) in texas Posts: 2,957	There are not enough responsible hobby breeders, there are way too many puppy mills, or kitten mills. Although I think we probably have less of a problem with purebred kittens/cats. If you go to a flea-market (or trades day), go to the animal section, I bet you 99% of those purebred puppies bein sold, are from puppy mills. This is wrong. Unfortunately people are greedy and consumers are stupid, so they will not regulate themselves in mass. If you don't want the government to step in to protect our animals, then you have to change the society's mindset. That happens alot more slowly than it takes to change laws (which is often too slow of a process as it is). So yes, I am in perfect agreement that sometimes it takes harsh measures to patrol the misbehaving, that also constrain the people who would otherwise behave. On further note, I do not necessarily agree with the law in PA about only a vet being allowed to kill an animal. At the same time I see its usefullness, if the same situation happens again the law has a recourse to further prosecute the offenders. __________________ Addicts may suck dick for coke, but love came up with the idea to put a dick in there to begin with. -Jack O'Brien

03-22-2009, 12:16 PM	#8
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Want the government to step in to protect our animals? There is no our animals. My animals don't need the government, and I doubt your animals do either. I also don't believe the government needs to protect BusterB's dogs, although people on this board gave him shit for keeping a dog outside. I would imagine there are plenty of people living in condos and high rise apartments, with little frou-frou dogs, that are appalled at the idea of a dog kept outside. I don't want those people making the rules. Everyone has their own visions of what a puppy mill is, mostly from news reports of dogs treated so badly it turns your stomach. We all agree that must be stopped, but where does the governments authority end? What about breeder that treats the dogs well, but cranks out more puppies than there is a market for, driving the price down? Or walmart bringing in Chinese puppies by the boatload, driving responsible breeders out of business? What is the governments responsibility there? We should trust the government to do a wonderful job with puppies like they've done with children? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 01:57 AM	#1
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	Then the business of hobby breeders matters not so much, but the puppy mills do, and so taxing them to make them not as profitable is good.

03-22-2009, 02:18 AM	#2
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	No, Im not really trusting the government, Im trusting the process.

03-22-2009, 02:23 AM	#4
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	The process of people making and adjusting the laws.

03-22-2009, 11:53 AM	#9
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Consumers aren't necessarily stupid, they may just be uniformed. My family bought from a kennels that almost certainly used puppy farm breeders for stock. We weren't stupid we just didn't know better at the time.

03-22-2009, 02:21 PM	#10
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	The problem is all those dogs on the Southern border sneaking in other dogs. Damm border collies or something. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

03-22-2009, 06:51 PM	#11
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	I don't understand the need for more laws... The "mill" animals are more akin to livestock than pets or companion animals anyway. Why aren't the USDA inspectors all over these places already? You can't treat cows, sheep, or even chickens this way... __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

03-22-2009, 07:37 PM	#12
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-22-2009, 08:12 PM	#14
ZenGum Doctor Wtf Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Badelaide, Baustralia Posts: 12,861	I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work. We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down. Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them. __________________ Shut up and hug. MoreThanPretty, Nov 5, 2008. Just because I'm nominally polite, does not make me a pussy. Sundae Girl.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)