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Old 06-10-2019, 09:39 AM   #91
henry quirk
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what about the millions of lurkers watching from the shadows, silently judging us"

I'm not much of a salesman. No doubt: I've put far more people off than I've convinced. Nuthin' I can do about that.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:42 PM   #92
henry quirk
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In other words...

...cuz of my poor marketin' skill, 'millions' of fence sitters have turned away from the bright light of individual autonomy and embraced the collectivist nightmare.

Me, a natural rights libertarian, I'm a friggin' poster boy for the commies.

irony
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:24 PM   #93
xoxoxoBruce
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I don't know if you're really a poster boy for the cause, seems to me there are some who are more hardline than yourself. I feel I'm closer to center than most of what you call "commies". No, wait, I see now, you're saying left and right don't matter, anyone who tries to work within the existing system is complicit, is a commie. Being an outlier isn't enough, one must not play at all. Man, that makes life awfully difficult doesn't it? Or is one allowed to swing through for provisions? I don't think divorcing oneself from the government and "commies" is possible without physically moving out.
But no matter where people live, somebody else is boss, even if it's a boos of their choice.

The libertarians in South Africa are banding together. They feel cryptocurrancy is the way to avoid being controlled.
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:11 PM   #94
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The Kling point comes down to this, for me;

When you study basic Physics, you get questions like,

A ball will run along a 20 foot track, which sits at a five degree angle. Assuming the ball is perfectly round, the track is perfectly straight, and there is zero friction, how long will it take for the ball to reach the bottom of the track?

In Physics 101, you can say "only solve for gravity" because you're learning about gravity, one particular force. But in the real world, that won't tell you anything.

In the real world, you can't say "only view it from the freedom/coercion angle" because the problem you are trying to solve is... I suppose... the best approach to human cooperation, into its yet undetermined future.

Culture. The foundation of morality. Evolved human nature. All that has a lot of fuckin' variables!! Humanity runs deeper than any of us knows.

If someone came up to you and claimed to have that solved to nine decimal places, wouldn't you be skeptical? You should be, there are a lot of people who make that claim.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:34 AM   #95
Griff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post

In the real world, you can't say "only view it from the freedom/coercion angle" because the problem you are trying to solve is... I suppose... the best approach to human cooperation, into its yet undetermined future.
I think the part both commies and libertarians miss about cooperation is that different humans thrive better using different systems. Some are open floor plan muther-fuckers, some hole up in a dark corner, some are better in a field with a dog, some work best in a big organization, some need military regimentation, the "system" has to leave room for choice. Having a remorseless top down system limits choice as does the no system system.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Culture. The foundation of morality. Evolved human nature. All that has a lot of fuckin' variables!! Humanity runs deeper than any of us knows.
Which is why physics teaches one to break a problem down into parts. Then solve the bigger problem by first solving it part by part.

Those who want to add emotional variations into the physics could not even solve the physics part. They get frustrated, angry, and confused.

Trick to life is to break problems down into parts. Then address each part separately. The art is knowing how to / where to do the breaks.

Amazing how henry throws everything into a big pot. Has no idea what is in there. And then immediately knows from observation (using only political biases) how to explain it all.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:43 AM   #97
henry quirk
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bruce

"you're saying left and right don't matter, anyone who tries to work within the existing system is complicit, is a commie."

Half right: left, right, pretty much the same, but folks workin' in the system aren't neccessarily complicit, just terminally niave.

#

"Being an outlier isn't enough, one must not play at all."

Wrong. You gotta play (by your own rules).

#

"I don't think divorcing oneself from the government and "commies" is possible without physically moving out."

Why would a body do that, be obligated to do that? I'm an American. I like living here, working here, would like to see America improve. I ain't goin' nowhere.

#

"But no matter where people live, somebody else is boss, even if it's a boos of their choice."

Wrong. I work for me: I have customers, not bosses. As for government: it's supposed to be peopled by employees, not bosses. That so many view elected and appointed folks as 'bosses' is a big friggin' part of the problem.

#

"The libertarians in South Africa are banding together. They feel cryptocurrancy is the way to avoid being controlled."

I can't get the page to load: cut & paste it, will you?

-----

I'm startin' a topic over in 'philosophy'...any one who wants to play: feel free.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:56 AM   #98
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griff

"I think the part both commies and libertarians miss about cooperation is that different humans thrive better using different systems."

Oh, I get that, encourage that. If Stan is most comfortable in a collective, then Stan ought to work for that. But that ain't right for me, so Stan needs to be mindful that I'm not gonna play nice with him and his. Surely: I don't expect Stan to play nice with me and mine as we work for sumthin' loose & raw.

Ideally: we'd leave each other alone. I'm willing. Is Stan? Doesn't seem that way. I wanna de-regulate life. Even if I'm successful, Stan and his comrades can still voluntarily regulate their bodies, minds, souls to whatever degree they like.

Does Stan reciprocate? No. He, instead, demands I submit to the same regulation he wants for himself.

In short: I wanna be left alone, to leave Stan alone; he wants to wrap a leash (or noose) around my neck.

#

"the "system" has to leave room for choice."

But it doesn't, and that's Stan's doin', not mine.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:58 AM   #99
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tw

see my user title, my sig line
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:09 AM   #100
xoxoxoBruce
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Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
I can't get the page to load: cut & paste it, will you?
It's a pretty longish article on Wired, with a bunch of pictures.
I tried to get there on IE but wouldn't go, said this page can't be displayed and kicked it over to my search engine which is Google.
Googled found it, first on the list, but when I clicked on it IE refused to hook it up.
Damnifino? Chrome goes right to it.

https://www.wired.com/story/inside-a...ryptocurrency/
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:37 AM   #101
Griff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
"I think the part both commies and libertarians miss about cooperation is that different humans thrive better using different systems."

Oh, I get that, encourage that. If Stan is most comfortable in a collective, then Stan ought to work for that. But that ain't right for me, so Stan needs to be mindful that I'm not gonna play nice with him and his. Surely: I don't expect Stan to play nice with me and mine as we work for sumthin' loose & raw.

Ideally: we'd leave each other alone. I'm willing. Is Stan? Doesn't seem that way. I wanna de-regulate life. Even if I'm successful, Stan and his comrades can still voluntarily regulate their bodies, minds, souls to whatever degree they like.

Does Stan reciprocate? No. He, instead, demands I submit to the same regulation he wants for himself.

In short: I wanna be left alone, to leave Stan alone; he wants to wrap a leash (or noose) around my neck.

#

"the "system" has to leave room for choice."

But it doesn't, and that's Stan's doin', not mine.
The 50 state solution mitigates some of this but I take your point. "Stan" and his opponent "Bob" both have grievances. Bob feels that Jesus shows his favor in a bank account and since he will be returning soon all environmental regulation is a farce. Stan wants a return to a "natural world". Is it fair to say that Henry wants to stay out of their argument so as not to be a nit-picker? Griff would suggest that decent science paid for by taxes could inform our decision making process and proper engagement with the regulators in the executive branch could lead to a reasonable outcome.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:33 AM   #102
henry quirk
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Bruce

I should have access to a chrome machine today. I'll give the piece a look-see then.

#

Griff,

"Is it fair to say that Henry wants to stay out of their argument(?)"

Yep.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:13 AM   #103
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Bob feels that Jesus shows his favor in a bank account and since he will be returning soon all environmental regulation is a farce. Stan wants a return to a "natural world".
So both of them believe in a mythical apocalyptic outcome based on everyone's collective bad behavior not bringing about a correct condition?



*apologies for the thread drift
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:44 AM   #104
tw
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Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
see my user title, my sig line
I also wanted to be on Nixon's enemies list. Can you also arrange that?

Adults don't use those expressions. Children do.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:24 AM   #105
Griff
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So both of them believe in a mythical apocalyptic outcome based on everyone's collective bad behavior not bringing about a correct condition?



*apologies for the thread drift
I wanted to show two extreme positions, held by irrational types. We each may find ourselves agreeing with one or both on occasion but a system to keep either from running roughshod seems sensible.
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