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Old 05-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #796
Aliantha
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And a cousin (second) who lived with Polio as a cripple (eta: I should say, lived as a cripple thanks to polio) till he died young. There are just so many stories which are so close to home. I have a first cousin with huge mental and intellectual disabilities and they suspect that it could be because his mother had rubella when she was pregnant - it's not certain, but it's possible; she was also involved in a minor car accident, so it could have been that to.

I'm just saying, you don't have to go very far back in modern history to hear countless stories. It's so easy not to acknowledge it when we don't have to live it.

I am just afraid that we're trading one bad thing for another. Just as you are. I guess personal experience is what has made both of us choose opposite sides of the same coin.

I do understand why you feel the way you do Clod. Honestly I do, and I love you for what you do, and how much you sacrifice for your kids and your beliefs. I think I speak for everyone when I say you are inspirational. There's no denying your commitment. The world would be a darker place without people like you. xxx
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:46 PM   #797
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I could lock the thread if you prefer.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:28 PM   #798
Aliantha
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UT, if you're asking me, then I'd say no, simply because it's a topic which will come up again one way or another regardless of which thread it is. I have no objections to you doing so if that's what others would prefer though.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:47 PM   #799
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Asking Clod honestly, because I don't think any of us wants to create that kind of upset in anyone's life. It's all fair.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:22 PM   #800
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No, Ali's right, the topic would just come up again elsewhere. What I really wish is that there were a way to put a thread on ignore, to just not see it and prevent myself from getting involved. But I'm pretty sure you've said before that that's not possible in vBulletin.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:59 AM   #801
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Clod, if I may offer some cold comfort direct form Vermont:

"It's hard saying, not knowing."

I think you have every reason to be suspicious of vaccines and other drugs and western medicine. It's also important to think through your conclusions, sometimes the questions are worth a lot more than the answers.
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Old 05-31-2013, 01:28 AM   #802
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There has to be an opt-out option in any vaccination law, for the people like Clod who are smarter than the average bear, actually know their children inside out, and can make rational decisions from broad based knowledge.

Any parent who makes these decisions and has half a brain, is going to have doubts because there is no bell or buzzer for the right answer. You do the best you can with the knowledge you have, and you may never really know if you did the right thing.

But as we all know, there is a large contingent out there that form lynch mobs, say hold my beer and watch this, plan their future with Ouija boards & fortune cookies, and vote for the stupidest motherfuckers in the world. It's unfortunate we all suffer at the hands of these morons, but when people in this thread refer to that group, it does make for a very compelling argument for mandatory.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:35 AM   #803
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Just be sure that when you make your risk assessment, you do it with the best information available. Don't settle for random internet sites. Search Pubmed and Scopus, even though it means a subscription. Then make your decision.

Clod, I believe you want the best for your children and are willing to sacrifice to accomplish that. Your devotion and investment speak for themselves. Anything I've said in this thread wasn't meant to make you feel invalidated or stressed.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:00 AM   #804
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There will always be a few people and famillies for whom vaccination is inappropriate or for whom the individual risks associated with vaccination outweigh the social benefits. Unfortunately, a lot of people make their decisions based on flawed science as presented in the popular press.

Clod: you are clearly not the latter and may very well be the former. You've certainly done a lot more research and learning, in general and specific terms, than most people ever will when faced with this decision. You've had to be, in order to get your head around the very specific risks your children have faced and will face.

You are not the problem. The rest of us have a duty to be vaccinated*in order to protect families like yours.




* that said, my vaccinations as a child had to be abandoned halfway through as my baby eczema pretty much exploded after the first lot. I didn't have any of the later shots like rubella and so on,. As an adult I've had specific vaccinations for specific risks (tetanus, flu), but I am very cautious. because of my particular history I would be wary of vaccinations if I had kids, but would want to discuss in some depth with my GP, who specialises in dermatological conditions.
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Old 05-31-2013, 09:08 AM   #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoc View Post
Just be sure that when you make your risk assessment, you do it with the best information available. Don't settle for random internet sites.
Many make that statement but rarely say how it is done. Recommending a responsible publication is suggestion. But more important is how to separate many ill informed sources from the few that actually have facts.

The information must always say why. And must always provide perspective (ie the numbers). Any source that makes a subjective claim is probably better considered propaganda. No perspective (the numbers) is a first indication that the source is probably useless.

Statements make by Jenny McCarthy clearly and without doubt met the criteria for 'useless'. Her statements could not have been more subjective; clearly were only wild speculation. That much should have been obvious to everyone. Unfortunately, a majority never learn how to separate chaff from fact.
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Old 05-31-2013, 09:41 AM   #806
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I learn something new every day: a wildly horrible case of eczema can be a rare adverse reaction to the smallpox vax. The vax is no longer generally given, because the disease has been eradicated world-wide. A safer version of the vax cannot be developed because it cannot be tested.

wikipedia on exzema vaccinatum

It is thought that the smallpox vax protects against HIV transmission.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:01 AM   #807
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Interesting. That isn't what I had, thankfully. But something went drastically wrong somewhere around the time of my first vaccs.

I can attest to the horribleness of chicken pox with eczema though...
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:37 PM   #808
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Court Orders MMR
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:02 PM   #809
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Why don't they just get the measles vaccine then? Why all 3?

If there was a measles outbreak nearby, I think I would be OK with my kids getting one. I wouldn't go to court and try to force them to though. We chose not to do it because they were not at risk, and the vaccine was more dangerous than the diseases to an infant.

My friend Rod's baby died shortly after getting that shot. SIDS, was the 'cause' of death. The mother, Dawn was lying on her back with Parker on her chest. They both fell asleep. Parker had been crying and uncomfortable and they had both been up all night. Died while she slept.

Dawn and jinx went to the same birth classes. Spencer and Parker were 2 weeks apart in age. Fucking horrible.

Neither of my kids has gotten chicken pox or mumps or measles.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:35 PM   #810
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Measles is a horrible disease.Its transmission is airborne, meaning that if you're in the same room with someone who's shedding virus, or if you enter the room that person left 30 minutes ago, you'll get it. Measles kills. It also causes SSPE, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, which is Latin for your brain just died - although the rest of you didn't. It also causes blindness.

Mumps is painful and miserable in kids (besides reading the literature, I had it), but in males it causes orchitis. Which means inflammation of the testes, leading to scarring and inability to produce sperm.

Pertussis kills, period. It's a bad actor. I had it too, fortunately when I was old enough to just cough myself blue in the face and then throw up for weeks on end. Did I lose weight and fail to thrive? You bet. But I was one of the lucky ones that didn't die of hypoxia.

Chicken pox are miserable for small kids, and serious for a minority. They're serious for older kids, though - think viral encephalitis, the possibility of never regaining normal neurological function - and, if nothing else, they leave scars at that point, a bit like small smallpox scars. Not funny. In susceptible adults, chicken pox is a virulent, serious disease that has complications in the majority. In pregnant women, chicken pox is an unmitigated disaster.

All three vaccines are necessary because we need herd immunity. The more of us that are immune, the lower the chance that the disease will manage to propagate in our population.

Jim, I'm sorry to hear about the death of Dawn's child, but SIDS has NO association with vaccines. I understand that it would be an easy association to make in this instance, but it's not true, any more than saying that roosters cause the sun to rise by crowing.

The coming tragedy will be the resurgence of these truly awful diseases as more and more people refuse vaccines, seeing no need for them because they have no experience with the diseases due to pre-existing herd immunity, and they've fallen prey to the downside of the internet: charlatans whose heads are up their asses, preaching doom and quoting (unsubstantiated) anecdotes as a scare tactic, without any substantiated proof of their assertions. These charlatans should be held accountable for every vaccine-preventable death and life disaster that occurs as a result of their deliberate perpetration of falsehood.

Vaccination was one of the immense steps forward for the human race. And now, because it was SO successful, many are declaring that we have nothing to fear from the diseases it prevents, and making it the scapegoat for problems that have other origins.
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