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Juju's Place Introspection, Lucidity, and Epiphanies

View Poll Results: What should Jan hope for?
Lawyer 6 50.00%
Lover 2 16.67%
Miracle 4 33.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 06-03-2003, 09:51 PM   #1
juju
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?

I have these two friends, Janice and David. I've known them for a little over 10 years. They're Christian, but I don't hold that against them. They're not the sort of folk that sing in church every Sunday. They follow their own moral code, but they don't shove their noses in everybody's else's business like the church folk do. When first I met them, they lived together, but were just friends.

I later learned that David was gay, but denied it to himself because he believed it to be a sin. When he became a Christian, he gave up his homosexual ways and became celibate. Jan and David both believe very strongly that he's not gay, despite his homosexual experiences. Being gay is a choice, and he's chosen not to be.

Several years later, Jan and David got married. Not too long after, a baby followed.

A couple years after, Jan messages me and tells me they're having problems. He doesn't like sex, she says, and they've only had it 10-15 times in several years. She tells me it's clear by the expressions on his face that he doesn't like sex, and that he prefers to masturbate. She's insanely frustrated, and believes herself to be a worthless, inadequate woman who can't even please her own man. What little self-confidence she had has been completely obliterated, as she completely blames herself for everything. To be fair, she does say that he's selfish for not trying.

I asked her if she still believed that being gay was a choice, and she said yes, that the problem was that he just wasn't trying hard enough. Now, she doesn't know what's going to happen.

I thought it'd be interesting to see what you guys thought. Maybe you could offer some insight? She also asked me to put up this poll, so vote accordingly!

Last edited by juju; 06-03-2003 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 06-03-2003, 10:32 PM   #2
dave
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Your friend is a sucker. She needs to wake the fuck up. So does he. They need to get a divorce and just be friends, where they can go on cock-sucking trips together. There's nothing wrong with being gay, so tell him to get the fuck over it.

That will never happen, because they're blinded by their stupid religion. They should probably just kill themselves.
 
Old 06-03-2003, 10:46 PM   #3
Undertoad
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My father died when I was three, and I was raised alone by my single mother from that age.

During my childhood I was exposed to several gay teachers (although nobody knew it at the time). A very good friend of mine from age 9-11 wound up gay. And I was involved in the theatre when I was in college.

Despite all this, I wound up heterosexual.

Yes, I'm not sure what went wrong. Maybe my momma wasn't feminine enough, or didn't make me out to be feminine enough. On the other hand, she didn't let me play with toy guns. So I dunno.

However, being involved in the theatre in college meant that I watched as others -- by my estimate, 50% -- slowly came out.

When I was a senior, in fact, I said to incoming freshman buddy Joe, who was also getting into the theatre crowd: "Joe, you won't believe me now, but before you graduate, half of your friends are going to turn up gay." (Joe was a confirmed het.) Four years later, he told me that to his amazement my prediction had come true.

So, having watched the species up close, having identified it early, I can't possibly imagine it being a choice in the gay people I've known. It's something deeply rooted within them, just as deep as the heterosexuality is in us hets. It might be genetic, or it might be a switch that gets set very early in life. Its persistence through different cultures, regardless of the public attitudes, kinda suggests that it's genetic.

I can imagine what it might be like for David. I try to imagine forcing myself to have lust for someone that I'm not attracted to. I imagine what it would be like if all of society told me I should have that desire. I might behave like I was expected to behave, to see if the desire might follow. The result would be very much like that: I'd try every few months, and if it wasn't happening maybe I'd come up with other excuses for why. Actual sex is that final expression of desire, and it's the part that's hard to fake.
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Old 06-03-2003, 10:48 PM   #4
Undertoad
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But uh, basically I agree with dave.
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:04 PM   #5
juju
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Well, I also wanted to add, I feel like this is an example where an intellectual question isn't just mental jibber-jabber. All this shit we talk about, it's not just for nothing. Your views really do affect how your life turns out, in a very real way.

Also, while I was driving my wife home from work tonight, she told me of two friends she knew who are also in this exact situation. My wife, Kathy, even used to date the guy, but eventually gave up on him after realizing he was hopeless. And now her friend is married to him! And the funny thing is, Kathy doesn't blame herself, because she realizes it wasn't her fault.

Decisions affect lives. Even if you think it's an insignicant one, it might not be.
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:21 PM   #6
juju
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave
Your friend is a sucker. She needs to wake the fuck up. So does he. They need to get a divorce and just be friends, where they can go on cock-sucking trips together. There's nothing wrong with being gay, so tell him to get the fuck over it.

That will never happen, because they're blinded by their stupid religion. They should probably just kill themselves.
You make it sound easy, but it's really not given her current mindset and situation. Hey, if only people really could "fix" things, just like that. Wouldn't life be great?
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:49 PM   #7
a case study
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Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?

You know, it's not as easy as you guys might think. Intimacy is a big issue in a relationship, but sex is only a by-product. And if two people love each other....

I have a question for all of you intellectuals. Do you all believe that the paths of your lives are chosen by genetics? Did none of you finish college against the odds, become under or over achievers, made a choice that surprised you or others? Did ALL OF YOU just say, "I had no choice," and get carried away by the whims of fate and fancy? Every homo or heterosexual has a choice, the same as straight persons do. I assume I'm not the only one out there who has had a same-sex fantasy or encounter. I could have gone to my own sex (who seem to be smarter) as easily as not. In the end, I made a choice.

As do we all: to stay with someone you love, and work through issues, be they sexual past or the fact that you always leave your freakin' socks on the floor.

Get over it. Life means choices: none of us were born speed-bumps; and whether we become one is up to us.
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:05 AM   #8
Skunks
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Genetic predisposition? Entirely possible, I suppose. A choice, if a nonspecific, early on, and well-hidden one? Equally possible. A figurative faucet you can turn on and off as it suits your lot in life? Probably not.


Where does bisexuality fit into it all?
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:23 AM   #9
novice
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Firstly, let me say I believe there is no choice regarding sexuality. Secondly, my room-mate through my Naval recruit school days was (is) bisexual and, boy, was i ever jealous. He had the entire human race to reject him rather than the mere fifty percent that beat me with sticks.
I'm hetro with no great desire to experience the flip side but if I was predetermined, especially bi, I wouldn't complain.
As for the married couple, if he really had choices surely he would choose to love and obey his god's wishes rather than succumb to the 'weakness' of sexual preference.
Lastly, I'm glad I'm on the outside looking in.
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:16 AM   #10
dave
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Quote:
Originally posted by juju
You make it sound easy, but it's really not given her current mindset and situation. Hey, if only people really could "fix" things, just like that. Wouldn't life be great?
I'm sorry, but your friends are dumb assholes. He is eventually going to break, and mommy is going to slash her wrists anyway. So we have a kid with a gay dad that dumped mom ("he didn't love us enough to change!") who is now taking a dirt nap. How fucked up do they want their kid to be?

Sometimes people need to wake up. You make it sound like it's impossible. This is pretty clearly a case where the two people would be better off as friends because sex really is required to make a happy and close marriage and these two aren't getting it done (for obvious reasons). Yet they're so blinded by their faith that they cannot accept reality (that they both like dick). Obviously they need serious counseling (and not some fucking charlatan like Dr. Phil), but they're not going to do that either. Tell me honestly, could they be in a more hopeless situation?

So what's the point? She will reject the truth and not do what she needs to do (which is get a divorce and find someone that can make her happy), so they're both going to be miserable.

My advice is to buy her a vibrator.
 
Old 06-04-2003, 09:08 AM   #11
SteveDallas
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Re: Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?

Welcome to our little corner of the Internet, case study!

Quote:
Originally posted by a case study
You know, it's not as easy as you guys might think. Intimacy is a big issue in a relationship, but sex is only a by-product. And if two people love each other....
You're absolutely right. But, based on juju's description, I'm not getting the impression that there's a lot of love in this marriage. Is it easy to admit that they both made a mistake, and move on? No. Is it difficult to stay together in the situation they're in now? Yes. Life is full of choices between two (or more) rotten options. I have to come down in the "split up" camp. The way I see it, it offers a better long-term situation than continuing with what's going on now.

Quote:
I have a question for all of you intellectuals.
OK, I'll answer even though it wasn't directed at me!

Quote:
Do you all believe that the paths of your lives are chosen by genetics?
No, of course not. But as I am now, I have certain predispositions. I'm somewhat introverted, I like solving problems, I like to take things apart and put them back together, and I have a limited amount of patience for shmoozing and "chit-chat". (As Skunks says, by now it doesn't matter whether it's nature or nurture.) In many ways I'm well-suited for my job as a network administrator/IT jack-of-all-trades. Is that the only job I could have been happy with? No, obviously. But it's equally clear that there are some jobs that would drive me up the wall, that would be "against my nature" if you will. Sales, for example. That doesn't mean I can't CHOOSE to go out and get a sales job. It does mean if I do, I probably won't be very happy.

I'm hetero. I have a pretty strong attraction to women. I've never experienced any desire to try men. Does that mean I couldn't CHOOSE to have a homosexual experience? No. But it does mean I'm not likely to find it as interesting as sex with a woman, and it's not likely that I'd be happy in a situation where I could no longer have sex with a woman.

So yes, people can always choose, but sometimes we make the wrong choice, and sometimes we don't realize it for years, and sometimes the other choice we didn't take was just as bad.

Last edited by SteveDallas; 06-04-2003 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 06-04-2003, 10:20 AM   #12
hot_pastrami
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My best friend's parents-in-law were in a similar situation... deeply Mormon people, thery were married and actually had a few kids before he finally admitted to himself and to her that he was gay. They are now divorced, and while it was difficult, I am certain that their lives are now (and will continue to be) better for separating. Who wants to look back on their life in old age, and think "My God, I wasted my life pretending to be intimate with someone who didn't make me happy?" Those are years that you can never have back, so once one realizes that the choices they've made will not bring them happiness, they can be cowardly and hide from them, or they can make some new choices.

No one is claiming that it it's not difficult, but everybody gets their turn wading through shit once in a while, and no amount of advice or words of comfort will make it easy.
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Old 06-04-2003, 11:26 AM   #13
a case study
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Re: Re: Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?

There actually is a lot of love in this marriage. He says that he's happy now, happier than he ever has been, or was, living the gay lifestyle. They love each other a lot, which is why this is so hard on them. Juju says "sometimes love isn't enough" but that sounds like a bumper sticker to me.

I think their hearts love each other, their bodies just don't seem to be making the leap.
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Old 06-04-2003, 12:12 PM   #14
warch
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Well "insanely frustrated" with "selfconfidence obliterated" doesnt sound like healthy intimacy and love. Either they can live with the nonsex companion compromise or they need more and will start lookin.

I think you have genetic dispositions, but those are also developed through society. And I think you cant help or particulary control who you fall in love with.

I'm the gal who dated that creative, arty, soon to come out 50% in college. I was a magnet. I ran a freakin' gay finishing school! You cant change 'em back, bless their little confused hearts.
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Old 06-04-2003, 12:30 PM   #15
juju
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Hell, the love part is easy. That comes naturally! I think anyone will tell you that marriage is work. You've got to reach compromises, learn to live with each other and work as a team, and not piss each other off. It requires constant maintenance and understanding, both of which have nothing to do with love. The love just makes it all worth it.

Given that, I think that staying together and keeping each other truly happy requires like a thousand more things than love. That's why I say the old maxim is true. But, I've only been married for a year, so I'd be more than willing to bow my stance to someone else's superior experience.
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