Philosophism - Page 3

Undertoad · 02-11-2005, 02:27 PM

The best way to gain respect here is to just be yourself, be honest, no matter who you are. and this last message is a great example of that.

Brown Thrasher · 02-11-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garnet

Sweetheart, you really need to relax. You've said the same thing in your last five posts, and in case you don't get it, nobody cares.

And BTW, you've been around since last October I can see, so you therefore aren't exactly "new." Regardless, when someone attacks me the way you did (go back to your original thesaurus comment in the other thread), I will respond in kind. Now go take your pills.

I,m afraid maybe you need some pills to relax. I take my pills for a terminal illness. I don't know what you were referring to in my last five post. Iapologize for insulting your intelligence in that post. However, I feel I was probably provoked. If you notice in other post, I do not troll or become defensive unless provked. I have just found some of your recent post controversial to previous post you have made. Now go find a doctor and get some valium.
Again, I apologize for any grammatical errors.

The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war." Desiderius Erasmus
PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

glatt · 02-11-2005, 02:59 PM

Give it a rest, you guys.

jaguar · 02-11-2005, 03:05 PM

of course if you want to look like an ass, follow the lead of Brown Thrasher

lookout123 · 02-11-2005, 03:21 PM

as i read these posts, i can't help but think "troll mode: active"

Schrodinger's Cat · 02-11-2005, 04:44 PM

Hmmm... I glanced over this thread in hope of finding something intelligent, but - oh, well. BTW, I'm new; so when do I get jumped on, or was the "100,000 Civilian Dead in Iraq" thread my baptism?

Clodfobble · 02-11-2005, 04:48 PM

People get jumped on when they type before thinking, not when they're new. You seem to do a lot of thinking before you type (even if some of that thinking is misguided.)

Schrodinger's Cat · 02-11-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

People get jumped on when they type before thinking, not when they're new. You seem to do a lot of thinking before you type (even if some of that thinking is misguided.)

Yeah, damn that scientific method, anyhow! You wouldn't believe the trouble it's gotten me in!

Oh, BTW, thank you (I think!)

smoothmoniker · 02-11-2005, 07:13 PM

Dunlavy, here's the problem I have with the kind of spiritual pluralism that you're advocating. When we talk about spiritual belief (metaphysical principles), there are two modes of thinking about the justification for holding beliefs:

1) Statements about metaphysical principles (existence of God, moral laws, etc.) should be evaluated based on their coherence to reality. If we say that God exists, we should only hold this as a "belief" if we have justified reason to think that our statement corresponds with reality, that God actually exists in a real sense. Any statement that we do not have justified basis for holding should be excluded from the list of things we believe as true. The best analog would be the scientist who believes that the earth rotates around the sun because the best evidence available demonstrates that this is the actual case in reality.

2) Statements about metaphysical principles should be evaluated based on the benefit that is derived from holding those beliefs. If we say that God exists, we should only hold this as a "belief" if doing so causes us to benefit in some way from holding the belief. The correspondence of the statement to reality, whether there is actually a God or not, isn't nearly so important as the beneficial state that accrues to me based on my holding the belief. The best analog is a girl sitting in a cancer ward being told be everyone that she is going to get better, and so derives benefit from holding that belief, whether or not it is actually the case in reality.

You seem to be standing in the second camp, category 2, looking at a multiplicity of belief systems and saying, "We need some way of distilling the good benefit that these people derive from holding these beliefs and shed everything that causes conflict between these beliefs. We are entirely justified in doing this, because the reason for holding a belief has nothing to do with how well it corresponds to reality, and has everything to do with the benefit we derive just from holding the belief." This is, I think, almost always the perspective of people who stand outside of belief systems. The problem is that nearly everyone within a belief system holds it for the first reason - they hold the belief based on their justified (whether or not ...) perception that the thing they believe to be true is true in actual fact, in reality.

The problem is that category 2 people really aren't making any sort of statements about metaphysical principles at all - they are making statements about sociology, about the emotional nature of humanity. People in category 2 have so modified the meaning of the word "knowledge" about metaphysical principles as to make it unrecognizable, and as a result, believe nothing at all.

So here's where the conversation goes from here. You tell me know you mean by "knowledge", "believe", "prove", and "justification (for belief)", and we'll see if any of those things make sense in the context of your new ecumenical creed.

I have no problem with you being new. I have no problem with you being young. I have a very strong negative reaction to sloppy thinking, particularly when your sloppy thinking is standing in critique to the thinking of others (category 1 believers). I think we should have this conversation, but you need to not take it personally when I use satire to convey my point.

-sm

Schrodinger's Cat · 02-11-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Belief:
The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something

Fact:
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences. . Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed b. A real occurrence; an event c. Something believed to be true or real 3. A thing that has been done. 4.The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence
ETYMOLOGY: Latin factum, deed, from neuter past participle of facere, to do

A belief is a personal construct, which may or may not be shared with others. A fact is a reality, which is there for everyone to see.

God's existence or non-existence has yet to be proven as a fact based on real occurrences. Various religions have created groups of writings centered around the system of belief shared by their individual members, but Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, or the Earth Mother has yet to appear in a concrete form to the rest of us. I have always found fundamentalist Christians to be the most interesting examples of brainwashed individuals that I have ever encountered. They take a book of belief as their ultimate authority and are horrified if the person they are speaking with does not share this belief. The mind of a fundamentalist seems literally incapable of breaking free from years of indoctrination with a dogma that began from his birth and has continued up to the present day. True believers have the same fascination for me as some people have for fire or leaping from great heights or evil. I am amazed that any human being would abandon precisely that attribute which distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom and defines us as Homo sapiens (sapiens - from the Latin to be wise).

That said, if someone takes solace in a certain belief system and does not act out of it to harm others, then I have no problem with it - believe away. Just don't ask me to share it.

Oh yeah, just noticed that this is my 100th post. Does this mean I now get to believe I'm an official cellar member? Any tracts that I must now deliver door to door? Perhaps a small, but tasteful picture of UT that I might discretely place on my desk? Perhaps an amulet consisting of a monkey at a typewriter that I might wear around my neck and tucked out of sight beneath the collar of my lab jacket? Anything? As a new cult member, I'm eager to obey all commands!

Dunlavy · 02-12-2005, 12:27 AM

I think i'll actually start again tommorow. I have a killer headache at the moment, and i'll prolly head out for bed soon enough. I actually came here to widen my understanding of others' beliefs, more than my own. A way to widen my own views.

There is no specific philosophism. I just called the heading for that philosophism for something to be made up for others to come in and share their beliefs rather than just stating my own. I mean, forums are meant to discuss. There isn't much weight on a topic where all we talk about is one thing. I completely forgot to describe what we were doing in here. O.o

gah

Griff · 02-12-2005, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

Oh yeah, just noticed that this is my 100th post. Does this mean I now get to believe I'm an official cellar member? Any tracts that I must now deliver door to door? Perhaps a small, but tasteful picture of UT that I might discretely place on my desk? Perhaps an amulet consisting of a monkey at a typewriter that I might wear around my neck and tucked out of sight beneath the collar of my lab jacket? Anything? As a new cult member, I'm eager to obey all commands!

The tatoo team will be there shortly, kindly shave your butt.

jaguar · 02-12-2005, 10:16 AM

there were tshirts....

Dunlavy · 02-12-2005, 10:49 AM

i'm just going to go ahead and edit my first post to make things more clear...

eh..... darn. Forgot that these types of forums can only edit the last post made..... hum...

lumberjim · 02-12-2005, 11:47 AM

changing the meaning of a post after people have replied is the fastest way of getting your ass torn off.

02-11-2005, 03:05 PM	#34
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	of course if you want to look like an ass, follow the lead of Brown Thrasher __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-11-2005, 03:21 PM	#35
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	as i read these posts, i can't help but think "troll mode: active" __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-11-2005, 04:44 PM	#36
Schrodinger's Cat Macavity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A Black Box Posts: 157	Hmmm... I glanced over this thread in hope of finding something intelligent, but - oh, well. BTW, I'm new; so when do I get jumped on, or was the "100,000 Civilian Dead in Iraq" thread my baptism? __________________ Macavity, Macavity, there's no on like Macavity, He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity. - T.S. Eliot, Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats

02-11-2005, 07:13 PM	#39
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	Dunlavy, here's the problem I have with the kind of spiritual pluralism that you're advocating. When we talk about spiritual belief (metaphysical principles), there are two modes of thinking about the justification for holding beliefs: 1) Statements about metaphysical principles (existence of God, moral laws, etc.) should be evaluated based on their coherence to reality. If we say that God exists, we should only hold this as a "belief" if we have justified reason to think that our statement corresponds with reality, that God actually exists in a real sense. Any statement that we do not have justified basis for holding should be excluded from the list of things we believe as true. The best analog would be the scientist who believes that the earth rotates around the sun because the best evidence available demonstrates that this is the actual case in reality. 2) Statements about metaphysical principles should be evaluated based on the benefit that is derived from holding those beliefs. If we say that God exists, we should only hold this as a "belief" if doing so causes us to benefit in some way from holding the belief. The correspondence of the statement to reality, whether there is actually a God or not, isn't nearly so important as the beneficial state that accrues to me based on my holding the belief. The best analog is a girl sitting in a cancer ward being told be everyone that she is going to get better, and so derives benefit from holding that belief, whether or not it is actually the case in reality. You seem to be standing in the second camp, category 2, looking at a multiplicity of belief systems and saying, "We need some way of distilling the good benefit that these people derive from holding these beliefs and shed everything that causes conflict between these beliefs. We are entirely justified in doing this, because the reason for holding a belief has nothing to do with how well it corresponds to reality, and has everything to do with the benefit we derive just from holding the belief." This is, I think, almost always the perspective of people who stand outside of belief systems. The problem is that nearly everyone within a belief system holds it for the first reason - they hold the belief based on their justified (whether or not ...) perception that the thing they believe to be true is true in actual fact, in reality. The problem is that category 2 people really aren't making any sort of statements about metaphysical principles at all - they are making statements about sociology, about the emotional nature of humanity. People in category 2 have so modified the meaning of the word "knowledge" about metaphysical principles as to make it unrecognizable, and as a result, believe nothing at all. So here's where the conversation goes from here. You tell me know you mean by "knowledge", "believe", "prove", and "justification (for belief)", and we'll see if any of those things make sense in the context of your new ecumenical creed. I have no problem with you being new. I have no problem with you being young. I have a very strong negative reaction to sloppy thinking, particularly when your sloppy thinking is standing in critique to the thinking of others (category 1 believers). I think we should have this conversation, but you need to not take it personally when I use satire to convey my point. -sm __________________ to live and die in LA

02-12-2005, 10:16 AM	#43
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	there were tshirts.... __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-11-2005, 02:27 PM	#31
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The best way to gain respect here is to just be yourself, be honest, no matter who you are. and this last message is a great example of that.

02-11-2005, 02:59 PM	#33
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Give it a rest, you guys.

02-11-2005, 04:48 PM	#37
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	People get jumped on when they type before thinking, not when they're new. You seem to do a lot of thinking before you type (even if some of that thinking is misguided.)

02-12-2005, 12:27 AM	#41
Dunlavy High Propagandist Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Forgotten Grove Posts: 117	I think i'll actually start again tommorow. I have a killer headache at the moment, and i'll prolly head out for bed soon enough. I actually came here to widen my understanding of others' beliefs, more than my own. A way to widen my own views. There is no specific philosophism. I just called the heading for that philosophism for something to be made up for others to come in and share their beliefs rather than just stating my own. I mean, forums are meant to discuss. There isn't much weight on a topic where all we talk about is one thing. I completely forgot to describe what we were doing in here. O.o gah

02-12-2005, 10:49 AM	#44
Dunlavy High Propagandist Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Forgotten Grove Posts: 117	i'm just going to go ahead and edit my first post to make things more clear... eh..... darn. Forgot that these types of forums can only edit the last post made..... hum... Last edited by Dunlavy; 02-12-2005 at 10:50 AM. Reason: damnable editing rules....

02-12-2005, 11:47 AM	#45
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	changing the meaning of a post after people have replied is the fastest way of getting your ass torn off. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

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