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Old 03-22-2009, 12:16 PM   #31
xoxoxoBruce
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Want the government to step in to protect our animals? There is no our animals. My animals don't need the government, and I doubt your animals do either.

I also don't believe the government needs to protect BusterB's dogs, although people on this board gave him shit for keeping a dog outside. I would imagine there are plenty of people living in condos and high rise apartments, with little frou-frou dogs, that are appalled at the idea of a dog kept outside. I don't want those people making the rules.

Everyone has their own visions of what a puppy mill is, mostly from news reports of dogs treated so badly it turns your stomach. We all agree that must be stopped, but where does the governments authority end?

What about breeder that treats the dogs well, but cranks out more puppies than there is a market for, driving the price down? Or walmart bringing in Chinese puppies by the boatload, driving responsible breeders out of business? What is the governments responsibility there?

We should trust the government to do a wonderful job with puppies like they've done with children?
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:21 PM   #32
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The problem is all those dogs on the Southern border sneaking in other dogs. Damm border collies or something.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #33
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I don't understand the need for more laws... The "mill" animals are more akin to livestock than pets or companion animals anyway. Why aren't the USDA inspectors all over these places already? You can't treat cows, sheep, or even chickens this way...
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:37 PM   #34
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Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food?
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:12 PM   #35
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I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work.

We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down.

Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them.
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food?
I am pretty sure they are only involved in the very front end of the industry. Once they leave for the small butchers they don't get into the inspection.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum View Post
I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work.

We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down.

Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them.
Only thing left to work out is how to pay for it... maybe they could put a tax or something on each female bred.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:21 PM   #38
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My mother was a hobby breeder...Cairn Terriors. Everything Nirvana lists about it is true.

However.

What Nirvana is neglecting to see is that her 'hobby' begets such things as puppy mills. And those puppy mills end up causing a lot of misery and harm to dogs.

I'm really disappointed to see that her one sided enthusiasm for her 'hobby' prevents her from admitting to the offshoot horrors that arise from it and also thus ignoring the necessary controls or regulations that are needed to prevent those horrors.

You know nothing about me Pico obviously. My hobby begets no such thing. I have bred dogs for 20 years and not one single dog with my pedigrees is in any puppy mill in the United States or the world. Screening and diligence is the key and some people just cannot resist being greedy, I am not one of those people. Most of the intact dogs I placed are in Europe in countries that do not allow pet mills because they have breed wardens. Those are people answerable to the government that gives breeders permission to breed their dogs using a certain strict criteria. Its pretty difficult if not impossible to pet mill in most European countries. There are plenty of hobby breeders with the same value system I have.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:28 PM   #39
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You know nothing about me Pico obviously. My hobby begets no such thing. I have bred dogs for 20 years and not one single dog with my pedigrees is in any puppy mill in the United States or the world. Screening and diligence is the key and some people just cannot resist being greedy, I am not one of those people. Most of the intact dogs I placed are in Europe in countries that do not allow pet mills because they have breed wardens. Those are people answerable to the government that gives breeders permission to breed their dogs using a certain strict criteria. Its pretty difficult if not impossible to pet mill in most European countries. There are plenty of hobby breeders with the same value system I have.

I got the impression that she was saying that your (and other hobby breeders) excellent style of breeding creates a demand for the breed that you simply cannot satisfy, so it generates the creation of puppy mills by the unscrupulous to satify the needs of those whos want one but can't afford/can't wait/don't understand the difference.... and so to a certain extent that makes puppy mills a side effect of your hobby...?
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:29 PM   #40
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Every pet I have ever sold is sold on a spay and neuter contract without registration papers. This is possible to do without making new laws. There are already plenty of animal cruelty laws on the books. Blaming people like me for the greed of others and the stupidity of pet buyers is ridiculous.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:32 PM   #41
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We bought all three of our Rhodesians like that, on a neuter contract. There was no problem. We did our part. And they have been great dogs. They were not much cheaper which was the down side of getting them from a breeder.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
not one single dog with my pedigrees is in any puppy mill in the United States or the world.
That seems like a rather bold statement - How exactly do you track them and their offspring and their offspring and so on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
There are plenty of hobby breeders with the same value system I have.
And there are many who do not. The question is how to stop one while promoting more of the other.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:37 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
Every pet I have ever sold is sold on a spay and neuter contract without registration papers. This is possible to do without making new laws. There are already plenty of animal cruelty laws on the books. Blaming people like me for the greed of others and the stupidity of pet buyers is ridiculous.
So they fail to S/N... they don't get the pedigree certificate. But they can still sell a puppy to people who don't care about the papers/don't know any better, just want the dog... for let's say, 75% of what you would have asked.....? Nice income, deal for the people who don't care about paperwork.... no, not your fault they don't care... but where did the desire come from?

/devilsadvocate
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:38 PM   #44
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Rhodesian Ridgebacks are not a common breed and I suspect that they would be pricey no matter what.
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:42 PM   #45
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The puppy mills (via the big kennels) satisfy the 'need one now' market. If you buy from a breeder yu cant just walk in and walk out with your chosen dog. You can at a big puppy kennel.
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