Unions: I need an intellegent discussion on their validity

[LabRat]

OK, here's where I turn to the cellar for advice, since my dad's taken his final dirt nap. There has been a push to start a union for the P&S "Professional and Scientific Staff" portion of the U of I's workforce. http://www.seiu199.org/join/p_s.cfm Yesterday, I actually had 2 people come to my HOUSE (40 miles form work) to get me to sign the 'card' for an election. (I did not!!) Before their visit, I did not care to be part of a union, and now after I DEFINATELY don't want to be part of one, despite their best bullshitting. There were several things that they said that just seemed fishy to me, and frankly I have to think that by coming to my home on a Sunday, they are hurting for the support they said they had.

What I would really appreciate fellow Cellarites, is anyone's $0.02 on unions. As a P&S staff, my salary comes from 'soft' money. My boss, Dr. Mike Dailey, writes grants, gets them, and I am paid from them. I am not paid by nor technically work for the university itself. He loses his funding, I lose my job. I do shitty research or slack off I get fired because we lose our funding. I am cool with that. The university ALREADY has an operations manual that outlines grievance procedures, payscales, and all the other things that a union contract would do. So why the hell would I want to pay dues (at least 1.9% of my monthly gross income!), and risk the current leval of security I have? Because some dumbass works for a boss who abuses him and he's not a) smart enough to switch to another lab b) willing to stand up for himself and go to the HR rep and file a grievance using the current ops manual? The people who visited said that the Union would provide networking for employment oppportunities (already have that at hawkeyerecruiter.com), someone to back them up during grievance procedures, (already have that too, in our depts HR rep), and get us more $$ since funding is going down. Uh, talk to the A-hole in the Whitehouse about that. When I asked about striking, thay said public employees are not allowed to strike. So how the hell does a union have any 'power'? They said that if an agreement could not be made, then an arbitrator would be brought in to pick a side. So, now Iv'e paid 1.9% of my salary in freaking dues to get nothing in return if the arbitrator says so? Bullshit.

Please, tell me your experiences, good and bad with a union if you've got 'em. Thanks!

[jaguar]

There are good unions and there are bad unions, like any organisation they've often become entities that look after themselves before their members. I have friends in AU whose parents have been though hell and back because of small numbers of powerful figures in the unions (which are practically mandatory) using them to get their way. However we live in a capitalist state, companies have an obligation to shareholders to pump every last bit out of you they can for as little as is possible before dumping your empty husk so banding together isn't such a bad idea really. Pity they've been kneecapped totally in the US so you're probably better of without. R&D academia isn't quite assembly line either.

[smoothmoniker]

It pisses me off to no end every time I have to write a check to the AMF union to work. Not only do they take an anual dues check from me, they also take a percentage of "work dues" from every gig I land. What do I get in return? A monthly magazine that's more of a political action rag than anything beneficial (vote for this candidate, not this candidate, all of which I disagree with).

Back when bosses were beating employees to death, filling coal mines with children, and forcing people to work 90 hour work weeks, I can see how unions had a legit purpose. These days, they seem geared toward accumulating their own politicla power and protecting the incompetent employees from any sort of responsibility.

-ml

[lookout123]

Labrat - you are in IA city so you know the Quad Cities. that is where i am from. My dad spent his entire life working for IH then became Case IH. this is also the hometown of John Deere, so pretty much everyone i knew was STRONG union. (UAW for the most part) i remember the days of people getting beat down with baseball bats for attempting to cross strike lines, and getting death threats for driving toyotas to work. during college i worked in that plant and another one that were both strong union.

Unions are positive in a lot of different ways. i'm sure you've seen the bumper sticker about thanking your union rep if you enjoy weekends and all that jazz. having a union rep for the grievance system is really powerful in this type of setting.

unfortunately, i don't think there are too many people in the union leadership (outside of the local) who have the best interests of the people in mind. the most frequent reason to see a union rep from outside of your local is when they come through to remind you that if you don't vote for the Democrat in the upcoming election you are betraying all that the union stands for and maybe you should find a new line of work. republicans are the devil (which is true) democrats are the kind hearted souls looking out for blue collar union workers (not true).

living in IA and especially working for the University system the way you do, you get the benefits of the Union without being required to join. giving up better than 1% of your pay with no tangible benefit seems pretty foolish to me. federal guidelines mandate compliance with much of what the unions were originally established to negotiate for.

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

It pisses me off to no end every time I have to write a check to the AMF

You know, when Mrs. Dallas lived in the NYC burbs of NJ, she got lots of gigs through the local chapter. It was definitely worth it. She hasn't gotten a single gig from the local here in 15 years. I think she oughta drop it, but she doesn't want to.

[lumberjim]

The salesforce in our dealership went union shortly before the current regime took over ( yes, i think the last GM got the boot for allowing this to happen).

I'ts unusual for a car dealership to be union, but there it is. My perception is that the salesmen get better benefits than i do....and they get them for free. they have a kickass payplan, too. on the otherside, they too are subject to the terms of their agreement. this means they get written up regularly for being below average, late or whatever else they do wrong. It all goes into their file, and they can be terminated for it after 3 warnings. They get held closely to the rules so that their leverage is limited. they have to attend quarterly union meetings, blah blah blah, and i'm sure they pay dues, but overall, i think they definitely benefit from the arangement.

It does lay the foundation of an adversarial relationship between the salesmen and management, though. Not that that isn't true in a non union shop.

[jaguar]

a union of salesmen.
*shudders*

[lookout123]

in the end, i think it is easily summarized. Unions are very useful and can have a great impact on the lives of those they represent, but in your specific situation, i don't know that it would really benefit you. IIRC, in IA, if there is a union established, even if you don't choose to belong you will received most of the benefits they provide but will not be subject to any of the downside. (dues, seniority slotting for new positions, etc.)

[vsp]

Bad: A previous employer of mine had both union and non-union positions available. When I took an oh-hell-I-got-my-degree-NOW-what job doing data entry there, it was a union position, so I got to start paying dues to the United Electrical Workers. What my job had to do with electrical work beyond my using an electric-powered dumb terminal, I'll never know, but that was a requirement for employment.

During my stay in that job, we went on strike once, losing three days' pay and gaining a moderate hourly raise. (Short version: the company had been sold, the union wanted massive payback for cuts the old owner had made, the new owner said "you want WHAT?", and the union VP came down and said "You people are nuts, I'd settle.") That raise and my crew-chief position were lost when the night shift was dissolved; moving to day shift left me at a net loss after losing shift differential and crew-chief pay, with not a finger lifted by the union to even talk to us about it. Never even got a membership card.

I moved to a non-union position with the same company. A month later, I started getting the union newspaper in the mail, unasked-for, which I'd never gotten while I was an actual member. It kept coming for years.

Good: Wal-Mart considers unions to be horrific, satanic and awful, so there must be something good about them.

[Clodfobble]

In general, I agree that most unions in this day and age are unnecessary bureaucracy.

However, my industry DESPERATELY needs to unionize, to stop the abusive practices by employers. It is quite standard in the videogame industry to work 80-hour weeks for months on end. Royalties don't happen anymore--some companies have bonus programs tied to the sales performance of a game, but that means you must still be working for that company at least a year or more after the game is released.

Not only is turnover between companies stupidly high (it's a joke, people will leave for another company, and then be back six months later, and then over to a third company shortly after) but general industry turnover is also excessive. A study was done by an industry website, and something like 70% of employees said they definitely planned to leave the industry within 5 years. Within 10 years, almost 100%.

Unionizing is actually pretty unlikely. But what is starting to happen is employees are more commonly accepting work on a contract basis. This means hourly pay with time-and-a-half for anything over 40 hours a week, no insurance benefits, and the understood loss of your job at the end of your contract, anywhere from one month to 18 months. But the studio managers don't expect--or allow--you to live at the office when they have to pay time-and-a-half for it.

I have had a manager order me to go home at 5:00PM, while in the same breath telling the standard employees that there would be a meeting at 3:00AM. I don't know if a union would be better, but contract work is certainly an improvement.

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Not only is turnover between companies stupidly high . . . but general industry turnover is also excessive.

And the employers don't seem, as far as I can tell, to think this causes any problems--just unplug one computer-drone-component and plug another one in.

This is also IMO tied in to the whole age discrimination thing. It's easier to work people in their young 20s like this.

[Clodfobble]

Definitely. For every person who leaves the industry as a jaded and bitter 28-year-old, there are a dozen 19-year-olds who would give anything to work on videogames.

[mrnoodle]

Unions can also make an unnecessary tangle out of things that could resolve themselves quickly. For example, my dad was giving a presentation at some conference and accidentally kicked the plug of the overhead projector out of the socket (pre-powerpoint days, of course). He went to plug it back in and was nearly dogpiled. Turns out a union man had to do the replugging.

Wouldn't have been so bad, except the guy whose job it was to plug things in at convention centers had already left. I'll spare you the longwinded tale, but it was about 3 hours later before the guy showed up, during which time the room was useless but for the chairs and beverages in back.


Saddens me to hear that videogame makers are so shat upon. That used to be a wet dream job of mine, before I realized the actual work that goes into making games...far less fun than the playing, it turns out.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Unions can also make an unnecessary tangle out of things that could resolve themselves quickly. For example, my dad was giving a presentation at some conference and accidentally kicked the plug of the overhead projector out of the socket (pre-powerpoint days, of course). He went to plug it back in and was nearly dogpiled. Turns out a union man had to do the replugging.

Ah yes, the madness that was the Pennsylvania Convention Center. Your dad may not have been in PA, but I guess these issues could occur at other convention centers. What really has to happen is that the companies and the unions need to understand that if the company goes under, everybody starves. In cases where the company is a Convention Center that nobody believes the state would have the balls to shut down, this is hard to impress.

In the end, though, at least as far as the PA Convention Center, an agreement was reached that would allow mere mortals to plug things in.

IMO, the value of a company should be the jobs it creates in the community as well as its value to shareholders and customers. Unfortunately, too much of the money given to companies ends up with top management and shareholders. The purpose of unions is to force the company to deal with it's employees, which I think is beneficial to all parties.

[Happy Monkey]

In each industry:

If employees have a long lists of corporations competing for their work, no union is needed.

If corporations have a long list of employees competing to get work, a union is needed.

A union is one way for employees to make a contract on equal footing with their employer - sometimes the only way.