Thank you, America! - Page 3

Undertoad · 11-09-2006, 02:32 PM

There were, and remain, strategic objectives to Iraq beyond simply WMD or even Hussein. But the strategic objectives are shot due to the unanticipated insurgency and continued sectarian violence.

BigV · 11-09-2006, 02:34 PM

Ok, nice recovery.

Question: Why are we fighting, no, who are we fighting in Iraq? The people we're shooting, the people shooting us, Who are they? Are they these "terrorists"?

There's a serious disconnect here about the terminology. Without some common ground here, we will continue to fumble blindly around this elephant, some claiming it's like a tree while others claim it's like a rope.

Flint · 11-09-2006, 02:35 PM

I love it when UT sets little boobie-traps in his posts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

...unanticipated insurgency...

Flint · 11-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

...the terminology...

Vague terminology is like a blank check.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065

OK, I give up - you guys are all right and I'm nuts. (not the first time) Just let me make sure I get this correct, so when asked I have ALL the facts and can discuss this intelligently. We, America, as a country, invaded another country, Iraq, and committed the majority of our military manpower, jeopardizing 10's if not 100's of thousands of lives, included all facets of our defense programs, spent countless millions of dollars AND dragged our allies with us for absolutely no reason other than to just to siphon off money into the pockets of political and personal supporters. Is that right??

A primary reason we attacked Iraq was described by the PNAC in advance. They thought we'd be greeted as liberators, and the jubilant Iraqis would give us land for military bases. They'd become a shining beacon of democracy, inspiring the people in neighboring countries to overthrow their despotic leaders and spread democracy throughout the region. And as our new ally, Iraq would sell us oil that would bypass the OPEC cartel.

Terrorism had little to do with it, except for reducing the need for the administration to come up with another excuse. Of all the countries in the region, Iraq was pretty low on the list of terrorist support.

DanaC · 11-09-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

riiight. You love us.

You are mistaking my disdain for rightwingers as a disdain for Americans.

Quote:

They = terrorists.

Terrorists cause terror, they put people in fear. Shock and Awe caused fear in Iraq. Iraq has never caused fear in America or Britain.

Aliantha · 11-09-2006, 05:44 PM

I think this thread has become nothing more than a slanging match between usually reasonable people.

Get a grip you lot.

All DanaC was trying to say was thankyou for doing what she was unable to do because she's not a US citizen. I'd like to say I'm happy with the outcome of the recent elections and it's a credit to the majority of US citizens.

As has been discussed in another thread recently, citizens of the world at large are affected by internal US politics. That's why there's interest in your elections and that's why others like to comment.

That's it.

9th Engineer · 11-09-2006, 07:03 PM

I'm waiting for other shoe to drop once Americans find out that the Dems are as clueless about all this as the Reps. ("But it we were told it would all get better once the Republicans left office and we voted for the Dems! Why oh why!")

Elspode · 11-09-2006, 07:06 PM

I don't think any reasonable person believes the Dems will cure all the ills. I think most people really just figured that the Republicans had their turn, and it is now time to bring in the guys on the bench.

Politics and social upheaval are a pendulum, not a massif. They swing from one side to the other over time, and do not remain embedded and immovable. The pendulum has reached its rightmost extreme, and will now swing back to the left for awhile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

BigV · 11-09-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I'm waiting for other shoe to drop once Americans find out that the Dems are as clueless about all this as the Reps. ("But it we were told it would all get better once the Republicans left office and we voted for the Dems! Why oh why!")

No, no, no, no... It was the PRESIDENT, in "campaign mode" who said a vote for the Democrats was a vote for defeat. sheesh. stop drinkin the kool aid, 'k?

9th Engineer · 11-09-2006, 07:21 PM

I thought that was assinine when that was used then as well, k? I was commenting more on the idea that people I talk to seem to believe that if the Reps are kicked out of office then everything will be peachy.

BigV · 11-09-2006, 07:40 PM

Those people are deluded.

Government can do good, although some will say I'm deluded for saying so. The principal difference I see just now is that Democratic majorities permit a different set of ideas, a different agenda. I hope the good that can come will be in the form of a different method in Iraq. The previous "plan"--"victory over terrorists" was not working. It seemed clear to me that the decision to "stay the course" had a large component of ... what? Shame? Fear of appearing weak by confessing the obvious failure of the "plan".

I believe there's more relief to GWB's mind than he's willing to display, in that now he can change and save some face. That's it. There was a pathological fear of losing *face* that prevented some legitimate changes. Now he has some cover--I eagerly anticipate some action.

Aliantha · 11-09-2006, 07:53 PM

I don't think anyone believes a change of government is a quick fix or that all the people will be happy once it's done.

Don't mistake happiness at a chance for change for delusion.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-09-2006, 10:41 PM

The Democratic Party, lacking (and how!) a plan to win the war of its own, will have to execute the "Republican plan" they've been irresponsibly trying to resist and undermine these past several years.

Who wants to bet a nickel they'll still eff it right up and lose the war to a bunch of hemipygian Islamofascists?

Aliantha · 11-09-2006, 10:49 PM

Perhaps they'll conclude the conflict and develop a plan to actually find Bin Laden.

11-09-2006, 02:34 PM	#32
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Ok, nice recovery. Question: Why are we fighting, no, who are we fighting in Iraq? The people we're shooting, the people shooting us, Who are they? Are they these "terrorists"? There's a serious disconnect here about the terminology. Without some common ground here, we will continue to fumble blindly around this elephant, some claiming it's like a tree while others claim it's like a rope. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

11-09-2006, 05:44 PM	#37
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I think this thread has become nothing more than a slanging match between usually reasonable people. Get a grip you lot. All DanaC was trying to say was thankyou for doing what she was unable to do because she's not a US citizen. I'd like to say I'm happy with the outcome of the recent elections and it's a credit to the majority of US citizens. As has been discussed in another thread recently, citizens of the world at large are affected by internal US politics. That's why there's interest in your elections and that's why others like to comment. That's it. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-09-2006, 07:03 PM	#38
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	I'm waiting for other shoe to drop once Americans find out that the Dems are as clueless about all this as the Reps. ("But it we were told it would all get better once the Republicans left office and we voted for the Dems! Why oh why!") __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

11-09-2006, 07:06 PM	#39
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I don't think any reasonable person believes the Dems will cure all the ills. I think most people really just figured that the Republicans had their turn, and it is now time to bring in the guys on the bench. Politics and social upheaval are a pendulum, not a massif. They swing from one side to the other over time, and do not remain embedded and immovable. The pendulum has reached its rightmost extreme, and will now swing back to the left for awhile. Lather, rinse, repeat. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

11-09-2006, 07:21 PM	#41
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	I thought that was assinine when that was used then as well, k? I was commenting more on the idea that people I talk to seem to believe that if the Reps are kicked out of office then everything will be peachy. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

11-09-2006, 02:32 PM	#31
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	There were, and remain, strategic objectives to Iraq beyond simply WMD or even Hussein. But the strategic objectives are shot due to the unanticipated insurgency and continued sectarian violence.

11-09-2006, 07:40 PM	#42
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Those people are deluded. Government can do good, although some will say I'm deluded for saying so. The principal difference I see just now is that Democratic majorities permit a different set of ideas, a different agenda. I hope the good that can come will be in the form of a different method in Iraq. The previous "plan"--"victory over terrorists" was not working. It seemed clear to me that the decision to "stay the course" had a large component of ... what? Shame? Fear of appearing weak by confessing the obvious failure of the "plan". I believe there's more relief to GWB's mind than he's willing to display, in that now he can change and save some face. That's it. There was a pathological fear of losing face that prevented some legitimate changes. Now he has some cover--I eagerly anticipate some action. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

11-09-2006, 07:53 PM	#43
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I don't think anyone believes a change of government is a quick fix or that all the people will be happy once it's done. Don't mistake happiness at a chance for change for delusion. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-09-2006, 10:41 PM	#44
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	The Democratic Party, lacking (and how!) a plan to win the war of its own, will have to execute the "Republican plan" they've been irresponsibly trying to resist and undermine these past several years. Who wants to bet a nickel they'll still eff it right up and lose the war to a bunch of hemipygian Islamofascists? __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-09-2006, 10:49 PM	#45
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Perhaps they'll conclude the conflict and develop a plan to actually find Bin Laden. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

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