The 24 hour engagement. - Page 18

Clodfobble · 06-02-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disenchanted

Doesn't seem like there's much hope in this crowd, and maybe it's because I still want to hang on to a little of that but don't have the distance to see it. Or, maybe there's a lot of people here that have their own scars...

It's because we all forget. Everyone can look back in their lives and see their own scars, and see how your situation is similar. We all forget just how blinding and hard it was to be in the situation at the time, so the advice given may come off as callous and too cut-and-dried. But even if everyone gave their advice as gently as possible, it wouldn't change the content of it.

Look at it this way: it's not that all of us want to crush all your hopes and dreams--it's that no one here has ever had an experience like yours that went on to become a successful and happy marriage. Like, if someone asked for advice over whether or not to date a coworker, a good number of people would say, "oh HELL no, that's a terrible idea," but at least a few would pipe up and say, "Hey, it worked for me and my spouse, happily married now for X years." Each of us is only providing advice based on what we've experienced in our individual lives. And if no one in a board with thousands of mature, rational adults has ever had a positive anecdote of this nature to encourage you with... well, that's the trend you're trying to interpret, isn't it?

disenchanted · 06-03-2009, 01:37 AM

Clodfobble, daff0dil: I hear that. Already it's getting hard to process the good times in light of the wounds (scars to come, I'm sure.) I'm supposed to keep waiting here, for what? Urgh...maybe I don't like that line of thinking just yet. But it's been made clear to me that I'm supposed to do something. What that is, not so clear. She was always very forceful about how she wasn't into tests. "The relationship is the test.", she'd say. The longer the strife went on, the more it felt like her admonitions to that regard weren't sitting right. It might not have been "a test", but it sure came across as one.

So now, I don't have the answers, I'm somewhere between feeling like that stupid kid in class that realizes the test was real and should've been paying closer attention, and some hazy idea of "Wait a second, why the hell am I being tested at all?" There's probably a third (or more) option, but I know I already failed one of her big tests: During one of the serious conversations, she asked if I believed her that she'd never test me, and I wasn't able to give a clear and honest answer. (This failure of certainty was brought up again at a later serious conversation.)

Tonight's new idea is "Holy $#!^, I've ended up in the same relationship again. Someone that's still not quite sure if they could live their life this way, and will (sooner, this time) get busy in the interest of reinventing themselves! Crap!" I'll have to examine that a bit. I'm still reacting to that idea right now. (This isn't sour grapes, but on the surface, there's something that doesn't sit well with someone who on our first date pointed to a building and said "On that roof is the strangest place I ever had sex!" or "Oh, I had counted wrong, you're actually my 21st!"....and then later deciding chastity suited herself better religiously. It's like I got walked into (or caused, who knows) the last day of her "Catholic Girls Gone Bad" period.

Undertoad: Her relationship with her father is crap. I can't blame her for that, as my relationship with my father is crap, but I can see how that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. I will say that in the latter days, she was more and more upset whenever I'd become exasperated with my father.

All: Thank you all for the replies. I've kind of monopolized the section for the past couple weeks, and I appreciate the input, even if I'm still a little lost. I'm going to go reread the thread myself to see what today's perspective on things changes what any of you had said prior.

As for the last test, I don't know. Am I supposed to pursue her and win her back? Am I supposed to give her the space that she wants? I don't know, but if she was right that "The relationship is the test", then what's it say that she was ready to walk away first?

As was said before, the one who loves least controls the relationship. Truth, there. But if she's in control and I'm supposed to act next, then Undertoad (and others) are right that she's nothing but playing games.

I'm sure I'll be bugging you all with my loneliness and screwed up self-confidence soon enough, but I'm having a harder and harder time seeing that there's anything left to wait for.

ZenGum · 06-03-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

but I know I already failed one of her big tests: During one of the serious conversations, she asked if I believed her that she'd never test me, and I wasn't able to give a clear and honest answer. (This failure of certainty was brought up again at a later serious conversation.)

My reading : Test: say you believe me when I say I will never test you.

If my reading is correct, there is NO POSSIBLE way to answer this without calling her a liar. In fact, the very question shows she is, frankly, nuts. It looks like manipulation for the power thrill, putting you in an impossible situation to watch you twist desperately to find a way of answering without either lying or hurting her.

Quote:

I've kind of monopolized the section for the past couple weeks,

No problem, we need things to talk about, if we'd got bored we would have just stopped posting. It's your thread. (except the drift bits, but you get that).

I actually dropped past to post, maybe the reason she said she "couldn't marry you" was due to family pressure to marry someone of the "right" religion. But, reading more, I doubt that.
And anyway, the more I read, the more I think you've dodged a major bullet. More of a white phosphorus grenade really, this one would burn for years if it got in any deeper.

Dr Zengum (a notorious quack, BTW) recommends you delete her number from your phone, remove all traces of her from your home, spend a month or two resolutely single, then with luck, hook up with some other woman - maybe some previous ex-girlfriend, or some new acquaintance - for a quick fling.

If you find yourself wondering about How Things Might Have Been, read Big Sarge's update thread. I reckon you have got off lightly.

classicman · 06-03-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disenchanted

I don't know, but if she was right that "The relationship is the test", then what's it say that she was ready to walk away first?

She = Fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by disenchanted

As was said before, the one who loves least controls the relationship. Truth, there. But if she's in control and I'm supposed to act next, then she's playing games.

You are seeing the light now. Good sign. continue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by disenchanted

I'm having a harder and harder time seeing that there's anything left to wait for.

There isn't, the truth is slowly seeping in...another good sign.

Hang in there - it gets better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum

...she is, frankly, nuts.
...It looks like manipulation
...I think you've dodged a major bullet.
...spend a month or two resolutely single...

If you find yourself wondering, read Big Sarge's update thread.
You got off lightly.

glatt · 06-03-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disenchanted

I know I already failed one of her big tests: During one of the serious conversations, she asked if I believed her that she'd never test me, and I wasn't able to give a clear and honest answer. (This failure of certainty was brought up again at a later serious conversation.)

Whoa. ZenGum already covered this better than I can, but that's just not right. Not only did she test you, but she brings it up at future dates to rub your nose in it?

Undertoad · 06-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Well count me as pop psychologist #423, but her relationship with her father is the basis for her relationship with all men until she has a good bit of life behind her (and maybe not even then)

If she has a loving caring dad, who plays with her and hugs her and is happy for her, she has normal healthy relationships. If there was a lot of chaos in her house, then she will be inclined to create chaos where there is none. If dad beats her, she may become sullen and withdrawn. If dad beats mom, she may become angry with all men. If dad sexually abuses her, she may become a stripper. If dad emotionally abuses her, she may become bulimic, or a "cutter". And so on.

If dad is loving at Christmas, but shitty the rest of the time, maybe she becomes that testing person, wondering whether there is love and endlessly testing for it.

She doesn't even know she's doing it, because it's "normal" for her.

Shawnee123 · 06-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

Not only did she test you, but she brings it up at future dates to rub your nose in it?

That is no way to live...in fact, it's horrible. It's not love, and it's not respect.

I take back that she just couldn't let you down easily.

Listen to what you hear, here. A lifetime of reliving every little thing you've done or said "wrong" isn't what you want or need. It's not for anyone. Been there, done that...after time it really messes you up.

classicman · 06-03-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

A lifetime of reliving every little thing you've done or said "wrong" isn't what you want or need. It's not for anyone. Been there, done that...after time it really messes you up.

Yeh really - look at all of us.

Trilby · 06-03-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

...if dad emotionally abuses her, she may become bulimic, or a "cutter"....

OR a promiscuous drug abuser! don't forget that one!

kerosene · 06-03-2009, 10:24 AM

That explains a lot.

Clodfobble · 06-03-2009, 07:27 PM

Or if Dad is loving and caring, but stepdad is an emotioally abusive dick, she may spend her early relationships in constant terror that the seemingly loving, caring boyfriend in front of her will suddenly turn out to be an abusive dick in disguise, and will shield herself accordingly.

You know, hypothetically speaking.

disenchanted · 06-03-2009, 09:06 PM

Part of me wants to move forward, part of me thinks there's still something to hold on to.

Her "give me more time and have a little patience" thing tells me either she thinks I'll eventually forget to call (or more precisely, putting it off until some later point at her convenience), wants to see how long I'd stick around, or wants to keep me around for some reason. The last one sounds the closest to positive, and even it doesn't sound that good.

So now I've got to figure out how to move on. I've just got this itchy sense that it's not terribly noble to let go yet.

classicman · 06-03-2009, 10:07 PM

...or she wants to keep you around as insurance (plan B) just in case studly do-right doesn't fall for her BS like you did.

disenchanted · 06-03-2009, 10:25 PM

classicman: yeah, I was kind of alluding to that possibility (even if it's some future studly do-right) as the last reason.

I'm a little mixed up right now. Many signs point to "Just let go already so you can mourn and heal!" and I can't tell if my reluctance is born of doing the right thing, or playing the martyr.

DanaC · 06-04-2009, 06:53 AM

Nobility has no place in this. Now is the time to foster self-preservation.

06-03-2009, 07:27 PM	#266
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Or if Dad is loving and caring, but stepdad is an emotioally abusive dick, she may spend her early relationships in constant terror that the seemingly loving, caring boyfriend in front of her will suddenly turn out to be an abusive dick in disguise, and will shield herself accordingly. You know, hypothetically speaking. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

06-03-2009, 10:07 PM	#268
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	...or she wants to keep you around as insurance (plan B) just in case studly do-right doesn't fall for her BS like you did. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-03-2009, 01:37 AM	#257
disenchanted Resident President Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 81	Clodfobble, daff0dil: I hear that. Already it's getting hard to process the good times in light of the wounds (scars to come, I'm sure.) I'm supposed to keep waiting here, for what? Urgh...maybe I don't like that line of thinking just yet. But it's been made clear to me that I'm supposed to do something. What that is, not so clear. She was always very forceful about how she wasn't into tests. "The relationship is the test.", she'd say. The longer the strife went on, the more it felt like her admonitions to that regard weren't sitting right. It might not have been "a test", but it sure came across as one. So now, I don't have the answers, I'm somewhere between feeling like that stupid kid in class that realizes the test was real and should've been paying closer attention, and some hazy idea of "Wait a second, why the hell am I being tested at all?" There's probably a third (or more) option, but I know I already failed one of her big tests: During one of the serious conversations, she asked if I believed her that she'd never test me, and I wasn't able to give a clear and honest answer. (This failure of certainty was brought up again at a later serious conversation.) Tonight's new idea is "Holy $#!^, I've ended up in the same relationship again. Someone that's still not quite sure if they could live their life this way, and will (sooner, this time) get busy in the interest of reinventing themselves! Crap!" I'll have to examine that a bit. I'm still reacting to that idea right now. (This isn't sour grapes, but on the surface, there's something that doesn't sit well with someone who on our first date pointed to a building and said "On that roof is the strangest place I ever had sex!" or "Oh, I had counted wrong, you're actually my 21st!"....and then later deciding chastity suited herself better religiously. It's like I got walked into (or caused, who knows) the last day of her "Catholic Girls Gone Bad" period. Undertoad: Her relationship with her father is crap. I can't blame her for that, as my relationship with my father is crap, but I can see how that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. I will say that in the latter days, she was more and more upset whenever I'd become exasperated with my father. All: Thank you all for the replies. I've kind of monopolized the section for the past couple weeks, and I appreciate the input, even if I'm still a little lost. I'm going to go reread the thread myself to see what today's perspective on things changes what any of you had said prior. As for the last test, I don't know. Am I supposed to pursue her and win her back? Am I supposed to give her the space that she wants? I don't know, but if she was right that "The relationship is the test", then what's it say that she was ready to walk away first? As was said before, the one who loves least controls the relationship. Truth, there. But if she's in control and I'm supposed to act next, then Undertoad (and others) are right that she's nothing but playing games. I'm sure I'll be bugging you all with my loneliness and screwed up self-confidence soon enough, but I'm having a harder and harder time seeing that there's anything left to wait for.

06-03-2009, 08:39 AM	#261
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Well count me as pop psychologist #423, but her relationship with her father is the basis for her relationship with all men until she has a good bit of life behind her (and maybe not even then) If she has a loving caring dad, who plays with her and hugs her and is happy for her, she has normal healthy relationships. If there was a lot of chaos in her house, then she will be inclined to create chaos where there is none. If dad beats her, she may become sullen and withdrawn. If dad beats mom, she may become angry with all men. If dad sexually abuses her, she may become a stripper. If dad emotionally abuses her, she may become bulimic, or a "cutter". And so on. If dad is loving at Christmas, but shitty the rest of the time, maybe she becomes that testing person, wondering whether there is love and endlessly testing for it. She doesn't even know she's doing it, because it's "normal" for her.

06-03-2009, 10:24 AM	#265
kerosene Touring the facilities Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The plains of Colorado Posts: 3,476	That explains a lot.

06-03-2009, 09:06 PM	#267
disenchanted Resident President Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 81	Part of me wants to move forward, part of me thinks there's still something to hold on to. Her "give me more time and have a little patience" thing tells me either she thinks I'll eventually forget to call (or more precisely, putting it off until some later point at her convenience), wants to see how long I'd stick around, or wants to keep me around for some reason. The last one sounds the closest to positive, and even it doesn't sound that good. So now I've got to figure out how to move on. I've just got this itchy sense that it's not terribly noble to let go yet.

06-03-2009, 10:25 PM	#269
disenchanted Resident President Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 81	classicman: yeah, I was kind of alluding to that possibility (even if it's some future studly do-right) as the last reason. I'm a little mixed up right now. Many signs point to "Just let go already so you can mourn and heal!" and I can't tell if my reluctance is born of doing the right thing, or playing the martyr.

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