The New "Tolerance" - Page 11

PizzaMonkey · 07-01-2006, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

That is one interpretation, yes - but not the only one, and . . . please humor me by explaining, specifically, does Jesus say anything about his death having magical qualities to the individual who just believes hard enough?

No, how could he, he was dead.

And it isn't supposed to be "Magic". "Magic" is deemed evil by the Bible.

wolf · 07-01-2006, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

And it isn't supposed to be "Magic". "Magic" is deemed evil by the Bible.

Not so ... of the 16 mentions of magic (or magician), none of them describe magic as evil.

Flint · 07-01-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

And it isn't supposed to be "Magic". "Magic" is deemed evil by the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Not so ... of the 16 mentions of magic (or magician), none of them describe magic as evil.

Case in point: "religious" people follow entrenched dogmas that have no relation whatsoever to the message they claim to follow. Magic is evil. Says who? Not Jesus. Not even the book about Jesus. But any "good Christian" will tell you magic is evil. Harry Potter is EVIL!!!

But why? It's got nothing to do with Jesus - so I ask you this: why tack Jesus' name on this poppycock? To legitimize your own bias? Or is it just out of blindly following along with whatever you are told, not questioning the origin of whatever wacky idea you hear in "church" - beause "church" is a place where everything you hear is true, and if you question it, you're burning in hell for all eternity!

I can't respect that. What is the purpose of calling yourself a "Christian" if you use you "Christianity" as a cheap crutch for your own half-baked ideas? That is sickeningly disrespectful to Jesus, wouldn't you think? Using his name to push your personal bullshit ideas? using his name to promote shit he has nothing to do with? How could you live with yourself if you claimed to worship this guy, but then you turn around and shit all over him and everything he stood for? Is it just pure fucking stupidity that this isn't glaringly obvious to anybody who has ever read the things that Jesus actually tried to teach us?

I maintain that calling yourself a "Christian" is a useless gesture that is actually harmful to the teachings of Jesus. Why do it? Why join that "special club"? Because it makes you feel good to belong to a group of "better" people? What exactly is the purpose of identifying yourself as a "Christian"? I really wish somebody would explain that.

Pie · 07-02-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

What exactly is the purpose of identifying yourself as a "Christian"? I really wish somebody would explain that.

So you can get that "faith-based initiative" moolah. Duh.

Great synopsis of the problems of religions, BTW. Philosophy is fine; religion sucks. Christian or otherwise.

PizzaMonkey · 07-02-2006, 07:10 PM

Er-Hum.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

That's been pretty much abandoned after Christ, because he was sort of "out with the old, in with the new" with laws, and stuff like that. However if you are a pre-Christ Wiccan amongst Jews, watch your back.

PizzaMonkey · 07-02-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

...beause "church" is a place where everything you hear is true, and if you question it, you're burning in hell for all eternity!

Any real Christian church will make you follow only one rule under threat of hell - follow Christ. And most churches I've seen encourage questioning. Questioning disproves - or proves - objections you may have had of any given religion or belief system. So if you come back to said religion, you come back with a stronger faith. The general attitude to "doubters" is "Oh, he'll come around," not "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!".

Flint · 07-03-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

What's a "witch"? What word did they translate that form? Aren't we attaching a contemporary definition to a translation of a word the meaning of which we have no idea of? By "witch" did they mean a green lady with a pointy hat? Does this refer to all women with a wart on their nose, or do they have to fly on a broomstick, too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

Any real Christian church will make you follow only one rule under threat of hell - follow Christ.

I agree. Any "real" church theoretically would follow that rule. When you find a "real Christian church" that doesn't attach any garbled dogmatic baggage to the simple message of Jesus, please let me know. I've never seen or heard of one in my entire life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

most churches I've seen encourage questioning

Again, please tell me where this wonderful imaginary church is, where Pastors love it when you argue with them about how to interpret the Bible. That's not how it works. Every church has a fixed outlook, and churchgoers "shop around" to find a church that they "fit in" with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PizzaMonkey

The general attitude to "doubters" is "Oh, he'll come around," not "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!".

100% wrong. If you question the interpretation of the Bible embraced at your church, then you are not on the right path. You are on the path headed to Hell.

skysidhe · 07-03-2006, 12:04 PM

Don't be confused about the inconsistencys in the Christian religion. One article link I posted discribes Christianity and Islam as the biggest threat to peace in the world. I quit with my religion after belonging then realizing there isn't a place for me on such shaky ground.

There are inconsistencys in the Bible and what people say about because many people scribed it. Many interpretaions from the original text and alot of people not researching for themselves. Oh and the political power a religion of this size brings.

There is a bigger picture than ideologies. No wonder followers are called sheep.
I frankly don't want to be a sheep even though I've been called a wolf in sheeps clothing.

( online )

I am not confused by prophecy vs divination.So one is supposedly of god one of the devil? pish posh I say.

To me they are the same action.
As for me I regard The dreams interpretations of Daniel and the prophecys of David to plain ole divination.
A kings greatest men , called wise men can divine but not the meak? I think not. Can great men of their time use theseal of Solomon or the Star of David. A symbol of Protection and warding off of demons exclusively? I think not.

Here is a section of my reference:
Astrologers are referred to in the Book of Daniel (Old Testament) as "wise men". It is prudent to conclude that the magi who were guided by "a star" possessed the skills of astrologer / astronomers. In the days of the ancients, astrology and astronomy were a singular principle science and no king or ruler was without the counsel of the stars. ie:
- The Star of Bethlehem.
the star of david
http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/star.htg/David.gif

http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm

There was Magic too :

Such as Jesus preforming supernatural feats by
changing water into wine
healing the blind.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm
More examples in link page.

It isn't just dogma. It is the way religious history as played out.All of this 'testing the spirits' has to be put away for the church to have total control. This is why the words of the new testement are diminished and our thinking brainwashed so that everything must be evil. Control by fear is the American way. It has to be. We are 90% a Christian country.

One must understand the opression of Paganism.
Celtic or Roman. The taking over of pagan holidays.
( they are on our calendars ...and the sun too btw) was the churches number one goal NOT to save souls but to gain control and power.

As for our present situations. If people DON'T think for themsleves then a persons power individually or collectively is diminished.

....the idea the New Testament was tryint to say.
was this.

'Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.' - 1 John 4:1

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/R...heSpirits.html

and what went on after those words were scribed was the elimination of Roman paganism ( by the Church and not by gods decree)

Between 1500 and 1900 there were few places where Christianity did not become the official faith by force.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/rhod...eRuthless.html

The only thing we have to remember is the chuch is the called 'the great whore' by revelations. is it any wonder after our last two elections.? Can it be any more evident than it is now? People call themselves Christians because they want to feel something. You can get anyone to do anything by evoking emotions. That's my take on it anyway.

skysidhe · 07-03-2006, 12:46 PM

I know that was a sucky post. I can't even make sense out of it. The idea is just so big and with a tiny vessel of a brain like mine to contain it.

The church is all about oppression is all I wanted to say. lol

Flint · 07-03-2006, 12:47 PM

Jesus overturned the corrupt system of his time, and we replaced it with a new corrupt system, with his name on it. No matter how many Jesus' show up to correct things, they turn sour again. If Jesus showed up today, he would smash "Christianity" and replace it with something new - and then this new thing would be twisted and exploited in just the same way.

Read what you want to read, don't let anybody tell you how to understand it, and don't call yourself anything. Joining special clubs won't benefit you in any way other than the completely selfish, superficial, and worldly way that the plumber with a fish on his van hopes to get more business.

Kitsune · 07-03-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

plumber with a fish on his van hopes to get more business.

Get with the times. Real Christians have upgraded to The Praying Calvin decal.

Flint · 07-03-2006, 01:20 PM

They don't make a "Calvin pissing on the Constitution" decal ???

PizzaMonkey · 07-03-2006, 04:14 PM

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The image of jerky, overly-stubborn Christians has become so common that people think that that's all there is. Look at any real church and you will not see an over sized cult, you will see caring people who aren't afraid to not agree with what everyone else says about God, morals, and the world.

Flint · 07-03-2006, 04:34 PM

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm talking about reality. This "real church" you refer to is "the way church should be" - I am talking about the way church is.

I see "caring people who aren't afraid to not agree with what everyone else says about God, morals, and the world" all the time, and strangely they accomplish this without feeling the need to band together as a specific group defined by a system of strictly-defined homogenous beliefs, the flipside of which is eternal damnation.

Ibby · 07-03-2006, 08:24 PM

I went to Methodist church for years, years ago, and personally I found them pretty agreeable. If you're gonna deal with christians, at least try to make sure theyre methodist.

07-02-2006, 07:10 PM	#155
PizzaMonkey Will my Title ever stop changing? Oh, I guess it has now... Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 70	Er-Hum. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. That's been pretty much abandoned after Christ, because he was sort of "out with the old, in with the new" with laws, and stuff like that. However if you are a pre-Christ Wiccan amongst Jews, watch your back. __________________ The law is an ass. ~Charles Dickens

07-03-2006, 12:04 PM	#158
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Don't be confused about the inconsistencys in the Christian religion. One article link I posted discribes Christianity and Islam as the biggest threat to peace in the world. I quit with my religion after belonging then realizing there isn't a place for me on such shaky ground. There are inconsistencys in the Bible and what people say about because many people scribed it. Many interpretaions from the original text and alot of people not researching for themselves. Oh and the political power a religion of this size brings. There is a bigger picture than ideologies. No wonder followers are called sheep. I frankly don't want to be a sheep even though I've been called a wolf in sheeps clothing. ( online ) I am not confused by prophecy vs divination.So one is supposedly of god one of the devil? pish posh I say. To me they are the same action. As for me I regard The dreams interpretations of Daniel and the prophecys of David to plain ole divination. A kings greatest men , called wise men can divine but not the meak? I think not. Can great men of their time use theseal of Solomon or the Star of David. A symbol of Protection and warding off of demons exclusively? I think not. Here is a section of my reference: Astrologers are referred to in the Book of Daniel (Old Testament) as "wise men". It is prudent to conclude that the magi who were guided by "a star" possessed the skills of astrologer / astronomers. In the days of the ancients, astrology and astronomy were a singular principle science and no king or ruler was without the counsel of the stars. ie: - The Star of Bethlehem. the star of david http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/star.htg/David.gif http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm There was Magic too : Such as Jesus preforming supernatural feats by changing water into wine healing the blind. http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm More examples in link page. It isn't just dogma. It is the way religious history as played out.All of this 'testing the spirits' has to be put away for the church to have total control. This is why the words of the new testement are diminished and our thinking brainwashed so that everything must be evil. Control by fear is the American way. It has to be. We are 90% a Christian country. One must understand the opression of Paganism. Celtic or Roman. The taking over of pagan holidays. ( they are on our calendars ...and the sun too btw) was the churches number one goal NOT to save souls but to gain control and power. As for our present situations. If people DON'T think for themsleves then a persons power individually or collectively is diminished. ....the idea the New Testament was tryint to say. was this. 'Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.' - 1 John 4:1 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/R...heSpirits.html and what went on after those words were scribed was the elimination of Roman paganism ( by the Church and not by gods decree) Between 1500 and 1900 there were few places where Christianity did not become the official faith by force. http://www.geocities.com/athens/rhod...eRuthless.html The only thing we have to remember is the chuch is the called 'the great whore' by revelations. is it any wonder after our last two elections.? Can it be any more evident than it is now? People call themselves Christians because they want to feel something. You can get anyone to do anything by evoking emotions. That's my take on it anyway. Last edited by skysidhe; 07-03-2006 at 12:10 PM.

07-03-2006, 12:47 PM	#160
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Jesus overturned the corrupt system of his time, and we replaced it with a new corrupt system, with his name on it. No matter how many Jesus' show up to correct things, they turn sour again. If Jesus showed up today, he would smash "Christianity" and replace it with something new - and then this new thing would be twisted and exploited in just the same way. Read what you want to read, don't let anybody tell you how to understand it, and don't call yourself anything. Joining special clubs won't benefit you in any way other than the completely selfish, superficial, and worldly way that the plumber with a fish on his van hopes to get more business. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-03-2006, 01:20 PM	#162
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	They don't make a "Calvin pissing on the Constitution" decal ??? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-03-2006, 04:14 PM	#163
PizzaMonkey Will my Title ever stop changing? Oh, I guess it has now... Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 70	This is exactly what I'm talking about. The image of jerky, overly-stubborn Christians has become so common that people think that that's all there is. Look at any real church and you will not see an over sized cult, you will see caring people who aren't afraid to not agree with what everyone else says about God, morals, and the world. __________________ The law is an ass. ~Charles Dickens

07-03-2006, 12:46 PM	#159
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	I know that was a sucky post. I can't even make sense out of it. The idea is just so big and with a tiny vessel of a brain like mine to contain it. The church is all about oppression is all I wanted to say. lol

07-03-2006, 04:34 PM	#164
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm talking about reality. This "real church" you refer to is "the way church should be" - I am talking about the way church is. I see "caring people who aren't afraid to not agree with what everyone else says about God, morals, and the world" all the time, and strangely they accomplish this without feeling the need to band together as a specific group defined by a system of strictly-defined homogenous beliefs, the flipside of which is eternal damnation. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-03-2006, 08:24 PM	#165
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I went to Methodist church for years, years ago, and personally I found them pretty agreeable. If you're gonna deal with christians, at least try to make sure theyre methodist. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)