Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims

10-17-2007, 10:10 PM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2677098.ece
Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims

Quote:

One of the world’s most respected scientists is embroiled in an extraordinary row after claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, has provoked outrage with his comments, made ahead of his arrival in Britain today.

Quote:

The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.

A very sad day for me. Watson was a real hero of mine.
Not only the bigotry, the fact that I don't believe in race, but the shoddy science is really the worst of it for me.

Flint · 10-17-2007, 10:15 PM

The idea that we all deserve equal treatment and opportunity under the law does not equate to an imaginary scientific conclusion that all human beings are, literally, biologically equal. Don't fall prey to Political Correctness. If you define groups of people based on genetic differences, then they are going to gave genetic differences, because you have defined them based on genetic differences. So they will have them. This is no surprise.

Political Correctness kills Free Speech. If we allow it to interfere with Science, we're all doomed. "Feeling Good" does not make facts.

lumberjim · 10-17-2007, 10:35 PM

meaningless. as a race, asians are probably smarter than europeans. africans are probably more nimble and athletic than both. individuals vary, obviously. i mean...look at freshness. he's one dumb asian. i'm glad the old guy had the balls to speak his mind. jimmy the greek got fucked.

10-17-2007, 10:46 PM

I agree, PC is mostly BS and harms most things including science, however:
He did not present any data, it is not his field and there is only one race, the human race.

Flint · 10-17-2007, 10:50 PM

He didn't present any data, or there wasn't any data presented in the article?

Or, the third option, that no data is necessary to support this statement (the product of logical thinking):

Quote:

“there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so”.

It isn't what we're supposed to say, but, what about it is wrong? What is logically wrong with what he said?

10-17-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

What is logically wrong with what he said?

It's a fluffy assumption... no data. Intelligence cannot be quantified that way.
Again, not his field.

Flint · 10-17-2007, 10:58 PM

How is it fluffy? What data does it require? Why is genetics "not his field" if he is a geneticist?

Clodfobble · 10-17-2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

It isn't what we're supposed to say, but, what about it is wrong? What is logically wrong with what he said?

This part:

Quote:

He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.

That's where he suddenly switches from talking about segregated, African genetic groups to any and all Western, homogenized-by-countless-generations black people.

10-17-2007, 11:44 PM

Genetics is his field, not testing intelligence.
I have yet to see any data that states that he did any exhaustive studies in that area at all, in fact, or that he has any background in that field.

piercehawkeye45 · 10-18-2007, 12:09 AM

There was no genetic evidence shown and his "reasons" could easily be refuted by a sociologist. Education will play a much bigger role in intelligence than genetics when it comes to large groups.

Quote:

Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said today: “It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments.

“I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson’s personal prejudices. These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional levels.”

If the entire scientific community denies his claims, I would take this as more personal reasoning than anything since he has shown to be prejudice against gays in the past.

queequeger · 10-18-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Education will play a much bigger role in intelligence than genetics when it comes to large groups.

True.

I thought we did this bell curve thing decades ago. This fella has let his profession dictate his logic, trying to find the genetic reason for something that is clearly environmental. While he does make a point that geographic separation could play a part, the only separation that's shown to make a difference in intelligence is education/social class. Likewise, physical strength will be different in a working class versus ruling class, all things equal. It's like a mathematician trying to find equations for emotions, some things can not be covered in your chosen expertise.

freshnesschronic · 10-18-2007, 03:09 AM

sidenote: if you don't want to see a refute of an irrelevant and unnecessary comment that fatass made then don't read, but fatass had to stir up shit with me for no apparent reason AGAIN

I'm only "dumb" because you don't understand me nor feel the need to try to.
I've never been cocky here in this forum about my intelligence but I believe I am 10x smarter than fatass ever will be. So he has more experience in life obviously, but coming from the community that I was raised in, the grades I had, the GPA I earned, the honors societies I belonged to, I can safely say I am almost guaranteeing I have more brains. Naperville, one of the most affluent cities in the state of Illinois. Our school district is chronically in the top five of the whole nation for years in nationally averages, fun fact: it was #1 in the world in Math and Science for grade schoolers; ahead of China. Oh, so it doesn't reflect on me huh? You'd be dumb to think it wouldn't, even if indirectly.

Ibby · 10-18-2007, 03:50 AM

YOO THNK IM STOOPID CUZ U DONT UNNERSAND ME WAAAAAH

oh, and IM NT COKY BUT IM SMRTR THN CHINA LOL

Kitsune · 10-18-2007, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

There was no genetic evidence shown

He wouldn't be able to do it. There is more genetic variation within a race than there are between them.

piercehawkeye45 · 10-18-2007, 07:55 AM

Yup, which is why the idea of different "races" has very little evidence to back it up. The percentage isn't even close to 50% as well, I think it is around 85 and 15.

10-17-2007, 10:15 PM	#2
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The idea that we all deserve equal treatment and opportunity under the law does not equate to an imaginary scientific conclusion that all human beings are, literally, biologically equal. Don't fall prey to Political Correctness. If you define groups of people based on genetic differences, then they are going to gave genetic differences, because you have defined them based on genetic differences. So they will have them. This is no surprise. Political Correctness kills Free Speech. If we allow it to interfere with Science, we're all doomed. "Feeling Good" does not make facts. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 10-17-2007 at 10:22 PM.

10-17-2007, 10:35 PM	#3
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	meaningless. as a race, asians are probably smarter than europeans. africans are probably more nimble and athletic than both. individuals vary, obviously. i mean...look at freshness. he's one dumb asian. i'm glad the old guy had the balls to speak his mind. jimmy the greek got fucked. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

10-17-2007, 10:58 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	How is it fluffy? What data does it require? Why is genetics "not his field" if he is a geneticist? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-18-2007, 03:09 AM	#12
freshnesschronic Professor Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,555	sidenote: if you don't want to see a refute of an irrelevant and unnecessary comment that fatass made then don't read, but fatass had to stir up shit with me for no apparent reason AGAIN I'm only "dumb" because you don't understand me nor feel the need to try to. I've never been cocky here in this forum about my intelligence but I believe I am 10x smarter than fatass ever will be. So he has more experience in life obviously, but coming from the community that I was raised in, the grades I had, the GPA I earned, the honors societies I belonged to, I can safely say I am almost guaranteeing I have more brains. Naperville, one of the most affluent cities in the state of Illinois. Our school district is chronically in the top five of the whole nation for years in nationally averages, fun fact: it was #1 in the world in Math and Science for grade schoolers; ahead of China. Oh, so it doesn't reflect on me huh? You'd be dumb to think it wouldn't, even if indirectly. Last edited by freshnesschronic; 10-18-2007 at 03:21 AM.

10-18-2007, 03:50 AM	#13
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	YOO THNK IM STOOPID CUZ U DONT UNNERSAND ME WAAAAAH oh, and IM NT COKY BUT IM SMRTR THN CHINA LOL __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

10-17-2007, 10:46 PM	#4
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I agree, PC is mostly BS and harms most things including science, however: He did not present any data, it is not his field and there is only one race, the human race.

10-17-2007, 11:44 PM	#9
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Genetics is his field, not testing intelligence. I have yet to see any data that states that he did any exhaustive studies in that area at all, in fact, or that he has any background in that field.

10-18-2007, 07:55 AM	#15
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Yup, which is why the idea of different "races" has very little evidence to back it up. The percentage isn't even close to 50% as well, I think it is around 85 and 15.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)