Pay for Work Completed

Kitsune · 07-28-2004, 10:38 AM

Let's say you do little HTML update jobs here and there for so much money an hour for a period of six months based on an agreement. On submitting an invoice, the client drags their feet, questions it for weeks, and, in general, never really coughs up a check to pay for the work you've done.

Now lets say you have a backup of the initial website before you made any changes.

Do you ever return the site to what it was if payment is never received? At what point do you do that? 30, 60, 90 days after the invoice is submitted? What are the rammifications of this action?

SteveDallas · 07-28-2004, 10:51 AM

My initial reaction was to say... don't do that... but what the hell. I've changed my mind. If they've gone a couple months or more, I'd send them a certified letter via snail mail (so you have proof) and tell them you demand payment immediately (or, well, give em like 2 weeks or something to physically deliver a check to you).

If they don't, mail em a second certified letter telling them that since they refused to pay you are essentially taking back the work you did for them. And then do it right after you mail the letter. Their only valid excuse for not paying you would be if the work were not of acceptable quality, in which case, gee, they probably are better off with it gone.

I would NOT threaten to do it (say, in the first letter when you demand payment) before you actually carry it out. This would (if they're smart) give them the opportunity to change the FTP passwords or otherwise prevent you from being able to access their server.

lumberjim · 07-28-2004, 10:57 AM

back up your current improved version, change it back to the old way, and then tell them that since they are not honorable, you do not trust them, and once they pay you, you'll put the improved version back up. do it now.

Troubleshooter · 07-28-2004, 11:04 AM

I'm with Lumberjim.

It's too easy to put you out in the cold and tell you to take a fucking hike.

Was there more than a verbal agreement involved?

Radar · 07-28-2004, 11:22 AM

That's what I'd do. I'd take down the new site right how and return the original site and then send them a letter or email stating that because they have not paid you in a timely manner, the work you've done will only be remitted upon reciept of payment (which of course means only AFTER the check has cleared) and then return it.

I think the best way to get their attention is to take the site down. If they like what you've done the money will quickly find its way to you. If you warn them, they may change the login information so you can't do it.

jaguar · 07-28-2004, 11:27 AM

A more subtle form of insurance would be to externally link the stylesheet to something on your hosting, legally you're fine and they probably won't know how to fix it.

smoothmoniker · 07-28-2004, 11:58 AM

DON"T TRASH THE WORK YOU DID!!!!

If you do, your legal standing goes to pot. As it stands right now, you have a legitimate case in small claims court. If you trash or undo the work you did, even if its reversible damage, you ruin your legal standing.

The important thing here is being paid, not being "right". Send them a certified letter stating, in very calm language, that they have 30 days to send complete payment by certified check, and if they fail to do that, you will take them to small claims court to secure an injunction against them. THEN if they don't pay, it gets very, very cool. You don't have to shut down their website, the court will do it for you. You can also get a sherrif to seize real property in lieu of payment. It usually doesn't get to that point though. They'll pay to stay out of court, because they know that legally you've got an ironclad case.

-sm

Troubleshooter · 07-28-2004, 12:01 PM

Kitsune,

Do you have any form of contract?

Legal avenues only work on a legitimate business relationship.

smoothmoniker · 07-28-2004, 12:08 PM

Not true! at least in California. Verbal contracts are binding, even if there's no specific rate set. If the judge determines that the work was done under a commercial agreement, they will try to establish the "market rate" for the work done, and will award that as a judgement.

-sm

Troubleshooter · 07-28-2004, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

Not true! at least in California. Verbal contracts are binding, even if there's no specific rate set. If the judge determines that the work was done under a commercial agreement, they will try to establish the "market rate" for the work done, and will award that as a judgement.

-sm

Same here, but it depends on the situation.

You don't look like a hippie or have dreads do you Kitsune? Piercings?

A judge's discretionary leeway is rather broad.

Kitsune · 07-28-2004, 12:43 PM

You don't look like a hippie or have dreads do you Kitsune? Piercings?

Best question yet. Heh. No, I look very normal for someone in the IT world. Professional, even!

There is a contract, the bad part is that it is all electronic. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but the agreement was done through e-mail and I still have copies of the incoming and outgoing e-mails. Does that hold up? No physical signiture in blue or black ink?

The contract doesn't state anything about returning the site to the original way it was if payment is not received, however, so that is why I'm not sure if this is an option. I'm not at all sure how small claims court works, either, or if it is even worth it. $1200 for six months of work? It seems silly and I can't believe they won't pay it.

Troubleshooter · 07-28-2004, 01:12 PM

I'm still leaning towards the "back to original until you get money" side. Too many if's involved in the legal road.

smoothmoniker · 07-28-2004, 01:27 PM

it's an issue of perponderance of the evidence. If you have e-contracts, that's one step above verbal "he said/she said". If he has inked contracts that contradict you, that's one step higher on the evidence latter.

e-contracts aren't inadmissible, they're just weak against stronger arguments. In small claims courts, they don't necessarily expect a 200 page notarized legal document ... they get alot of cases where it's just some guys printed invoice, or scribbling on a napkin.

-sm

wolf · 07-28-2004, 01:50 PM

I'm not an attorney, I don't play one on TV. Although many of the people you are hearing from have various kinds of business experience ... they're not lawyers.

Ask yours what to do.

07-28-2004, 10:38 AM	#1
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Pay for Work Completed Let's say you do little HTML update jobs here and there for so much money an hour for a period of six months based on an agreement. On submitting an invoice, the client drags their feet, questions it for weeks, and, in general, never really coughs up a check to pay for the work you've done. Now lets say you have a backup of the initial website before you made any changes. Do you ever return the site to what it was if payment is never received? At what point do you do that? 30, 60, 90 days after the invoice is submitted? What are the rammifications of this action?

07-28-2004, 10:57 AM	#3
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	back up your current improved version, change it back to the old way, and then tell them that since they are not honorable, you do not trust them, and once they pay you, you'll put the improved version back up. do it now. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

07-28-2004, 11:04 AM	#4
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	I'm with Lumberjim. It's too easy to put you out in the cold and tell you to take a fucking hike. Was there more than a verbal agreement involved? __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

07-28-2004, 11:22 AM	#5
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	That's what I'd do. I'd take down the new site right how and return the original site and then send them a letter or email stating that because they have not paid you in a timely manner, the work you've done will only be remitted upon reciept of payment (which of course means only AFTER the check has cleared) and then return it. I think the best way to get their attention is to take the site down. If they like what you've done the money will quickly find its way to you. If you warn them, they may change the login information so you can't do it. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

07-28-2004, 11:27 AM	#6
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	A more subtle form of insurance would be to externally link the stylesheet to something on your hosting, legally you're fine and they probably won't know how to fix it. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-28-2004, 10:51 AM	#2
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	My initial reaction was to say... don't do that... but what the hell. I've changed my mind. If they've gone a couple months or more, I'd send them a certified letter via snail mail (so you have proof) and tell them you demand payment immediately (or, well, give em like 2 weeks or something to physically deliver a check to you). If they don't, mail em a second certified letter telling them that since they refused to pay you are essentially taking back the work you did for them. And then do it right after you mail the letter. Their only valid excuse for not paying you would be if the work were not of acceptable quality, in which case, gee, they probably are better off with it gone. I would *NOT* threaten to do it (say, in the first letter when you demand payment) before you actually carry it out. This would (if they're smart) give them the opportunity to change the FTP passwords or otherwise prevent you from being able to access their server.

07-28-2004, 11:58 AM	#7
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	DON"T TRASH THE WORK YOU DID!!!! If you do, your legal standing goes to pot. As it stands right now, you have a legitimate case in small claims court. If you trash or undo the work you did, even if its reversible damage, you ruin your legal standing. The important thing here is being paid, not being "right". Send them a certified letter stating, in very calm language, that they have 30 days to send complete payment by certified check, and if they fail to do that, you will take them to small claims court to secure an injunction against them. THEN if they don't pay, it gets very, very cool. You don't have to shut down their website, the court will do it for you. You can also get a sherrif to seize real property in lieu of payment. It usually doesn't get to that point though. They'll pay to stay out of court, because they know that legally you've got an ironclad case. -sm __________________ to live and die in LA

07-28-2004, 12:01 PM	#8
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	Kitsune, Do you have any form of contract? Legal avenues only work on a legitimate business relationship. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

07-28-2004, 12:08 PM	#9
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	Not true! at least in California. Verbal contracts are binding, even if there's no specific rate set. If the judge determines that the work was done under a commercial agreement, they will try to establish the "market rate" for the work done, and will award that as a judgement. -sm __________________ to live and die in LA

07-28-2004, 12:43 PM	#11
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	You don't look like a hippie or have dreads do you Kitsune? Piercings? Best question yet. Heh. No, I look very normal for someone in the IT world. Professional, even! There is a contract, the bad part is that it is all electronic. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but the agreement was done through e-mail and I still have copies of the incoming and outgoing e-mails. Does that hold up? No physical signiture in blue or black ink? The contract doesn't state anything about returning the site to the original way it was if payment is not received, however, so that is why I'm not sure if this is an option. I'm not at all sure how small claims court works, either, or if it is even worth it. $1200 for six months of work? It seems silly and I can't believe they won't pay it.

07-28-2004, 01:12 PM	#12
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	I'm still leaning towards the "back to original until you get money" side. Too many if's involved in the legal road. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

07-28-2004, 01:27 PM	#13
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	it's an issue of perponderance of the evidence. If you have e-contracts, that's one step above verbal "he said/she said". If he has inked contracts that contradict you, that's one step higher on the evidence latter. e-contracts aren't inadmissible, they're just weak against stronger arguments. In small claims courts, they don't necessarily expect a 200 page notarized legal document ... they get alot of cases where it's just some guys printed invoice, or scribbling on a napkin. -sm __________________ to live and die in LA

07-28-2004, 01:50 PM	#14
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I'm not an attorney, I don't play one on TV. Although many of the people you are hearing from have various kinds of business experience ... they're not lawyers. Ask yours what to do. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

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