Chief Illiniwek

[elSicomoro]

We don't really know why school always choose what they choose, given how much goes on behind the scenes. I'm sure that some teams choose Native American names out of respect. But I suspect that more often than not, they're based on stereotypes.

Chief Illiniwek looked like a tool to me. So did the mascot renderings that SEMO used. Not to mention, that stupid Tomahawk Chop in Atlanta.

Even if we're talking portrayals, there are still huge differences. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Do you know one person that was offended by the Fighting Whiteys? I don't... not one. I suppose because 6 million Jews died in Germany, I can't laugh at fiddler on the roof, too.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

A lot of teams chose Indians out of respect for their abilities as warriors. Does that mean their mascot should go around fighting everyone? No, only opponents.
Every one of them looks better than "drunken Ira Hayes". What do you want, noble red man sitting on his horse gazing over the plains below? Talk about perpetuating a stereotype, most of them never saw the plains.
I'm not talking about how they were treated, but how they are portrayed.

Right. Because they stereotype Indians as "warriors," "braves" or similar, a la old John Wayne movies. The most positive depiction of Native Americans by sports team mascots is NO depiction. The University of Illinios, ignorantly, couldn't even get it right trying to depict a specific tribe with their mascot. Of all places, institutes of higher learning should hold themselves to higher standards.

I'm not sure what you mean by "most of them never saw the plains"--several tribes still live in the plains areas.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The Indians got there ass kicked when they tried to stop the settling of North America. Boo fucking hoo, get over it, unless you want a rematch. Stop being a professional victim. You've seen pictures of the reservations, they suck.
One of the guys I work with came from a reservation on the Mexican border, high school diploma because he wanted it, joined the Navy to get away, and never looked back. Nice house and family in the suburbs because he refused to be a victim. He hasn't forgotten his heritage, his tribal history, but he knows that was then and this is now.
They can't wander around hunting Buffalo and setting fire to the plains anymore. They can't live on roots, berries and venison in the Ozarks anymore. It's not going to happen, ever.... so get off your ass and get to work if you want more than you've got.

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim. Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them. Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations." It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

[freshnesschronic]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim. Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them. Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations." It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

Agreed. It sounded like Bruce was saying that they should just assimulate just because everyone else does. It is not a bad thing at all if some Native Americans want to whole heartedly maintain their culture that was practiced for generations before the settlers. By just saying "yeah, whatever they got their assked kicked" then it shows total intolerance and ignorance to their culture.

Everyone has a right to maintain their way of life as it seems fit. We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

The Yanomami is a first-contact Native American tribe in the Amazon that refuses to live like normal Brazilians. We shouldn't make them assimulate just because we tell them to.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

I think it's safe to say, though, that most Native Americans in the U.S. who maintain traditional cultures also incorporate the "U.S. lifestyle." Those who don't would have to make a concerted effort not to.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Right. Because they stereotype Indians as "warriors," "braves" or similar, a la old John Wayne movies.

No, not John Wayne Movies, that's what they respected and emulated the most. Go to the Smithsonian and read the Lakota winter counts. Highlight of the year?...caught an unarmed boy from another clan out picking berries alone, and killed him.

The most positive depiction of Native Americans by sports team mascots is NO depiction.

Why can't you understand they are not depicting Indians, they are depicting a caricature. Nobody thinks the mascots are depicting any real indians.

The University of Illinios, ignorantly, couldn't even get it right trying to depict a specific tribe with their mascot. Of all places, institutes of higher learning should hold themselves to higher standards.

They should be historically correct in dress and manner? Give me a break, it's a mascot not a historical pageant.

I'm not sure what you mean by "most of them never saw the plains"--several tribes still live in the plains areas.

oooow, several tribes huh? How many Indians do you think were living between the Atlantic and Pacific, at their peak? And how many of them ever saw the great plains?

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim.

"Culture is a catch all phrase. If you sustain yourself buy hunting and gathering and suddenly you're in a place with no game and you can't keep moving to gather, then you damn well better come up with a new plan, even if your ancestors did it for centuries.

Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them.

I guess that depends on your definition of suck.

Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations."

Who said they were?

It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Bullshit, it's desert, there's precious little water, and the only jobs are tracking wetbacks for the federal government. Everybody else lives on welfare. Who in hell would go back to that? Get a dose of reality, will ya.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

Yeah, there are "communities" of Sandhill Cranes, too. But thanks for straightening that out, silly me, I didn't know the indians won.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

Agreed. It sounded like Bruce was saying that they should just assimilate just because everyone else does. It is not a bad thing at all if some Native Americans want to whole heartedly maintain their culture that was practiced for generations before the settlers. By just saying "yeah, whatever they got their assked kicked" then it shows total intolerance and ignorance to their culture.

Can you point to where that "quotation" came from? It wasn't me. Define culture, what do you think is incorporated in "their culture".

Everyone has a right to maintain their way of life as it seems fit. We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

Fine, they can live any way they want. But if they piss and moan that the feds should support them because they can't hunt and gather anymore, that doesn't cut it. They don't have to live in a split level rancher and have two SUVs in the driveway. They can live in a tipi, wigwam, wickiup, hogan, double wide or palace, that's their business. They don't have to give up their way of worshiping or their crafts and traditions. But they DO have to find a way to support and feed their families. I would assume most of them do that. Usually that means working for a living outside, but what ever works for them. I'd hardly call the assimilating.

The Yanomami is a first-contact Native American tribe in the Amazon that refuses to live like normal Brazilians. We shouldn't make them assimulate just because we tell them to.

Who said they did? As long as they have the means to continue their lifestyle, why can't they? The rub comes when they start killing off their neighbors to maintain that lifestyle. If that happens, you can be sure they will get their ass kicked in short order, because the government can't tolerate that. It's eventually going to come down to who owns the land and I'm pretty sure the government thinks they do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

I think it's safe to say, though, that most Native Americans in the U.S. who maintain traditional cultures also incorporate the "U.S. lifestyle." Those who don't would have to make a concerted effort not to.

Absolutely, if they have any brains they pick and choose what they want from other people lifestyles. Take what appeals to them and reject things that don't, so that their lifestyle evolves in a manner they are comfortable with.

If I moved to Japan I'm sure I would adopt much of their lifestyle. But I'm not eating raw fish.

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Why can't you understand they are not depicting Indians, they are depicting a caricature. Nobody thinks the mascots are depicting any real indians.They should be historically correct in dress and manner? Give me a break, it's a mascot not a historical pageant.

The problem is idiots actually end up missing the whole caricature point. You don't want to know how many people think the Vikings actually had horns based on Minnesota Vikings emblem. The solution isn't to make the team change but to make sure people know it's a caricature.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Maybe, but when I see Chief Wahoo, I think of the Cleveland Indian baseball team, nothing more. When I see the kneeling maiden in buckskin, I think of Land-O-Lakes butter, that's all. There will always be people that are just dense, and I object to dumbing down the whole world to their level.
Irony and satire replaced with politically correct potty jokes is not good or good for us.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

When I see the kneeling maiden in buckskin, I think of Land-O-Lakes butter, that's all.

You know full well that you think of more than just butter ...

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, not John Wayne Movies, that's what they respected and emulated the most. Go to the Smithsonian and read the Lakota winter counts. Highlight of the year?...caught an unarmed boy from another clan out picking berries alone, and killed him.

Are you talking about the Native American Museum? Is that all you got out of it? That's really fucking sad.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Why can't you understand they are not depicting Indians, they are depicting a caricature. Nobody thinks the mascots are depicting any real indians.They should be historically correct in dress and manner? Give me a break, it's a mascot not a historical pageant.

I understand it, and I've said it. Again, that's the problem, people do think the mascots depict "real Indians"--because those are the stereotypes they've been inundated with. But since "real Indians" are standing up and saying something about it, everyone benefits from the education.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

oooow, several tribes huh? How many Indians do you think were living between the Atlantic and Pacific, at their peak? And how many of them ever saw the great plains?

Millions. I said I wasn't sure what you meant--I thought you were talking about Native Americans in the present tense. But I keep forgetting that you don't really think of us in those terms.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

"Culture is a catch all phrase. If you sustain yourself buy hunting and gathering and suddenly you're in a place with no game and you can't keep moving to gather, then you damn well better come up with a new plan, even if your ancestors did it for centuries.

Culture is comprised of different things for different societies--it's not a "catch all phrase" by any means. Native communities each have their own set of circumstances; how they rebuild and/or sustain themselves and what they incorporate is unique unto themselves. There are those who are having a tough time and slower going of it, and a whole spectrum of every other situation you can think of. It's interesting that many tribes today do have traditional resources still available or within their grasp, and work toward maintaining that, or bringing it back into their lives. It's similar, if not exactly the same as, for example, other Americans' move toward utilizing organic food techniques and resources.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bullshit, it's desert, there's precious little water, and the only jobs are tracking wetbacks for the federal government. Everybody else lives on welfare. Who in hell would go back to that? Get a dose of reality, will ya.

People do choose to go back to their native communities, even the ones in the desert. Just because it's not a reality you're familiar with, doesn't make it bullshit. What's bullshit is being so outraged about things you know little or nothing about, and having no desire to learn more about them.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yeah, there are "communities" of Sandhill Cranes, too. But thanks for straightening that out, silly me, I didn't know the indians won.

Not all tribes have engaged in violent confrontation with the U.S., so they can't be considered to have "won" or "lost." What do Sandhill Cranes have to do with this? We're talking about HUMAN BEINGS, not birds.

[freshnesschronic]

Well put, blue. That's what I woulda said, if I was a better writer.

I agree, let's consider the culture of peoples that frankly, is beyond comprehension of our culture. Telling them to change because that's the way it goes isn't how it should be. Let's try not to hold onto the colonialistic attitudes of "Land? Land should be owned! This is the West! Shutup and move or die!" that got us into this mess in the first place.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Are you talking about the Native American Museum? Is that all you got out of it? That's really fucking sad.

No, I'm not....Winter counts.
Btw, that central hall is the biggest waste of space in DC.....think of all the wonderful exhibits that could be displayed there, even if it was contemporary crafts or tribal projects. Yeah, yeah, giant tipi/council lodge complete with smokehole. No, wasted valuable space.
The Smithsonian has had a considerable collection of Indian stuff, long before it became fashionable to break up their stuff into dedicated museums.
That's just a fund raising ploy, anyway.
Give to the Smithsonian.
I already gave.
But this is for the Indian Museum.
Oh, ok.
Give to the Smithsonian.
But I just gave?
But this is for the Air & Space Museum.
Oh, ok.
Give to the Smithsonian.

I understand it, and I've said it. Again, that's the problem, people do think the mascots depict "real Indians"--because those are the stereotypes they've been inundated with. But since "real Indians" are standing up and saying something about it, everyone benefits from the education.

You're an expert on what people think and why? Why are you determined to educate the public about what Indians are doing now.
I suspect as long as you don't interfere with them doing their thing, most people have more than a passing interest in, or care if, you're doing your thing. That was the general idea when the Constitution was written. Granted, it's been severely strained, but it's still a good idea.
Case in point, most people don't even know what their Congress Critters are doing and that's something that effects them profoundly.

Millions. I said I wasn't sure what you meant--I thought you were talking about Native Americans in the present tense. But I keep forgetting that you don't really think of us in those terms.

You got that right. I think of everyone that belongs here as Americans. I'd rather dwell on what we have in common, even though that's become unfashionable. Everyone is running around declaring they are different, they are special, which is usually followed by why they should get preferential treatment.

Culture is comprised of different things for different societies--it's not a "catch all phrase" by any means. Native communities each have their own set of circumstances; how they rebuild and/or sustain themselves and what they incorporate is unique unto themselves. There are those who are having a tough time and slower going of it, and a whole spectrum of every other situation you can think of. It's interesting that many tribes today do have traditional resources still available or within their grasp, and work toward maintaining that, or bringing it back into their lives. It's similar, if not exactly the same as, for example, other Americans' move toward utilizing organic food techniques and resources.

Foul. Culture is an English word. It can't have a different meaning for different communities. You have to establish what the word culture encompasses. Once thats established, the circumstances, the problems, and solutions can vary from place to place but not the definition of culture. You've just proven my statement that people used it as a catch all, by doing just that.

People do choose to go back to their native communities, even the ones in the desert. Just because it's not a reality you're familiar with, doesn't make it bullshit. What's bullshit is being so outraged about things you know little or nothing about, and having no desire to learn more about them.

You have no idea what I know. You said

It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

We were both talking about a specific individual . I said

Bullshit, it's desert, there's precious little water, and the only jobs are tracking wetbacks for the federal government. Everybody else lives on welfare. Who in hell would go back to that? Get a dose of reality, will ya.

Still speaking of a specific individual and his circumstances. I still say your statement was bullshit applied to that specific individual.
I don't care how many return to their roots, I wasn't discussing that. I was talking about how one individual escaped a hell hole and became a productive member of a community instead of living on welfare and bitching. Again, if you can't support yourself where you're at, move.

Not all tribes have engaged in violent confrontation with the U.S., so they can't be considered to have "won" or "lost." What do Sandhill Cranes have to do with this? We're talking about HUMAN BEINGS, not birds.

That's right they didn't. The smart ones adjusted, adapted and evolved with the developing circumstances. The ones that persisted in fighting went the way of the Sandhill Cranes. Human beings? More specific than that, Americans. I don't think any of the tribes are issuing passports yet, are they?
I really don't care what they are doing north or south of our borders.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

Well put, blue. That's what I woulda said, if I was a better writer.

I agree, let's consider the culture of peoples that frankly, is beyond comprehension of our culture. Telling them to change because that's the way it goes isn't how it should be. Let's try not to hold onto the colonialistic attitudes of "Land? Land should be owned! This is the West! Shutup and move or die!" that got us into this mess in the first place.

What mess are we in?
Or are you speaking for the Indians?

OK, since you don't believe in property ownership I think I'll sleep in your bedroom tomorrow night. OK?