Which is more evil?

[Griff]

Originally Posted by richlevy

As for the slippery slope argument, I wish the people who are willing to apply it to even full automatic weapons would apply the same logic to flag burning and other free speech issues.

Meet L. Neil Smith not a great sci-fi writer but he does take a no nonsense approach to the Bill of Rights.
http://www.lneilsmith.org/bor_enforcement.html

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Griff

Meet L. Neil Smith not a great sci-fi writer but he does take a no nonsense approach to the Bill of Rights.
http://www.lneilsmith.org/bor_enforcement.html

Not true. I love his 'adventures in Libertarian-land' sci-fi stories.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Look on the bright side mrnoodle. At least noone can shoot you in the head for coming to close to a military convoy or bomb your house because suspicious looking people may have run into it.

As for the slippery slope argument, I wish the people who are willing to apply it to even full automatic weapons would apply the same logic to flag burning and other free speech issues.

No disgruntled worker ever walked into his office and talked his coworkers to death.

Couple things.

First, I'm not sure that people are getting shot simply for coming too close to a military convoy. Of course, if you're talking about a checkpoint that has been bombed 3 times already and has a sign in 5 languages saying "If you try to drive through here without stopping, you're going to be shot", and I try to drive through it without stopping....well. And if a terrorist hides in my house, it will be because I'm already dead. Otherwise, the good guys can come pick up his bullet-riddled body at their convenience.

Secondly, I take issue with the slippery slope argument as it applies to free speech. At least, I think we're talking about vastly different grades of slope. It's a looooooong slow ride from "you can't display your feces in a jar here" to "you can't say anything derogatory about the government". It's almost a vertical drop from "that gun looks military, so it's banned" to "that's a gun, it's banned."

[xoxoxoBruce]

If they really gave a shit about anything but a complete ban on guns they'd enforce the hundreds of laws that are on the books.
They tout the background checks preventing ineligible people from buying guns but never prosecute those people for trying, as the law demands.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

No disgruntled worker ever walked into his office and talked his coworkers to death.

Though he may make them wish they were either asleep or beyond sleep. Certain weighty office supplies, briskly applied to such bores, may in extremis shut them off.

Joking aside, the thing that makes these guys dangerous isn't that they come in shooting, but that their targets were impeded from having arms of their own with which to resist being murdered. It's kind of hard to make a successful moral case for telling someone that he must suffer murder -- just because you've got a little problem with gun owning and generally bearing arms about as one sees fit.

Rich, I give you praise, though: in this thread, you are mostly not talking BS. Keep up the good work.

Thoughtful Second Amendment advocates become First Amendment activists almost as a law of nature.

[wolf]

The truth is that the kind of "workplace violence" that rich is referencing is extremely rare, but catches a lot of media attention.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Thoughtful Second Amendment advocates become First Amendment activists almost as a law of nature.

Maybe you can tell that to the people who think that freedom demands that no flags be burned or 'disrespected'.

If we could attach a rider to the second amendment that guaranteed the right to burn a flag in anger, that would probably shut up the most vocal advocates of the idea that protecting the symbol of freedom at the expense of the freedom it represents is a good idea.

Hilary is nuts.

I don't have no time for her and her anti-americanisms.

[wolf]

I'm starting to feel better about Wendy.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Hilary is nuts.
I don't have no time for her and her anti-americanisms.

Originally Posted by WOLF

I'm starting to feel better about Wendy.

Why? Everybody, knows Hilary is nuts.

[djacq75]

Originally Posted by Griff

Hillary wants to pass a no-burn flag law instead of amending the Constitution. So which is more evil? At least the Republican nutjobs acknowlege that there has to be an amendment to mess with freedom of speech. They are sociopaths for suggesting it, however.

All jingoist rednecks should be castrated before they breed more rednecks. Then again, I guess we need to keep a few around to change our oil and greet us when we go into Wal-Mart

[capnhowdy]

the end result could be noone left to read your posts.

[Kitsune]

The flag flap is up for a vote soon.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California was the lone committee Democrat to vote for the measure, saying its language was designed to both protect the flag and First Amendment free speech protections.

It's funny because that's mutually exclusive.

Anyone who thinks limiting freedome of speech is a good idea should think about what gives them the right to say such a thing... then shut-up.

To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." ~George Mason~

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder

TJ on Disarming Public
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for
the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
-- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).

“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).

“I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426, June 16, 1788

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”
-- Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (February 6, 1788).

“Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.” - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941), Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357 (1927)

“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person
were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified
in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would
be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard
even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine,
Dissertation On First Principles Of Government

The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791
“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

The flag flap is up for a vote soon.



It's funny because that's mutually exclusive.