So the short fat Latino dude ...

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Wrong. Martin wasn't "stalked". Zimmerman was keeping an eye on him, as a neighborhood watch guy/gal might be expected to.

So Zimmerman got out of his car. Followed Martin by foot. Did exactly what a neighborhood watch person is NOT supposed to do. Got so close as to create a physical confrontation. And yet did not stalk Martin? Did not create the confrontation?

Not even Zimmerman would believe that.

And OJ Simpson was home watching TV when Nicole was murdered - using your logic. Wacko extremist rhetoric is alive and well.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

So Zimmerman got out of his car. Followed Martin by foot. Did exactly what a neighborhood watch person is NOT supposed to do. Got so close as to create a physical confrontation. And yet did not stalk Martin? Did not create the confrontation?

Not even Zimmerman would believe that.

And OJ Simpson was home watching TV when Nicole was murdered - using your logic. Wacko extremist rhetoric is alive and well.

I'll tell you what I know, from statements of witnesses:

1) The community (a small gated apartment community)was being burglarized "frequently".

2) Martin was walking around, at about sunset, and appeared suspicious to Zimmerman. People claim this is a sign of racism, but the vast majority of burglars are young males, between the age of 14 and 34 years old. Certainly, burglars operate at night, under cover of darkness, as well as in the daytime.

Although the prosecution dug deep for ANY sign of racist speech, posts, or acts in Zimmerman's past, they found absolutely NOTHING. Since that was the case, the judge ordered that no reference to racial profiling, could be used, by either side in the trial. The judge was a black woman, btw.

3) Martin became aware of Zimmerman following him, by the time he got back to his girl friends house. He handed her the candy he'd bought at the local store, and told her he was going "to fix that cracker", that was following him.

Note that Zimmerman is 4 inches shorter than Martin, and "well marbled" (a bit fat). In appearance, he looks a lot more like the Pillsbury dough boy, than any kind of an athlete.

4) Martin then doubled back to "fix" Zimmerman. What their verbal interaction was, I have no idea.

5) A fight breaks out between them. The witness could only see due to the fading light and distance, than the guy with the hoodie on knocked the other guy to the ground, and was punching the guy on the ground, repeatedly.

6) Zimmerman had a concealed weapons permit, and although advised not to wear it, he had brought it with him. Martin broke Zimmerman's nose, and was hitting his head hard enough to slam the back of his head against the ground. Someone was heard calling out for help, repeatedly.

Shortly afterward, Zimmerman shot Martin one time, killing him.

This may shock you, but as a Neighborhood watcher, Zimmerman is SUPPOSED to watch people, in the neighborhood. Remember, this is a rather small gated apartment community, and Martin didn't live there - he was just visiting for the weekend.

By induction, it should be elementary that Zimmerman should be watching this non-resident young male walking around inside the gated community, at sunset.

By the statement of the gf, it was MARTIN who confronted Zimmerman, not the other way around. In any case, the confrontation SHOULD have stayed VERBAL, and non-violent, but it clearly did not.

Now, do you think this Pillsbury doughboy, acting as a Neighborhood watcher, attacked a high school football player who was 4 inches taller than he is?

Or do you think that Martin tried to "fix that cracker", by breaking Zimmerman's nose, and then slamming his head against the ground a few times?

If Zimmerman had no injuries, I'd say it was the former, and Zimmerman was guilty of murdering Martin - but Zimmerman had significant injuries. Half a dozen more head slams and it might well have been Zimmerman who was killed.

Since there was no video of it, we will never be 100% certain of just how this tragedy unfolded. Given the info I have, I have to say it was Martin who was pounding on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was defending himself.

[glatt]

Wendy Dorival was the civilian member of the police department who set up that particular neighborhood watch program.

Dorival testified that in fall 2011, she visited Zimmerman and other residents at the housing complex to discuss setting up a watch program. During her testimony, prosecutor Guy focused on her instructions to residents about how to behave when they spotted a suspicious person.

“Their duty is to be the eyes and ears. Report crime as they see it,” said Dorival, adding that she provided handouts stressing this and also explained it verbally during the meeting. Zimmerman was there as the neighborhood watch coordinator, a role he told Dorival had been assigned him by the president of the homeowners' association.

Guy asked Dorival what the handouts and her instructions tell volunteers to do if they begin following a suspicious person.

“We tell them they don’t do that. That’s the job of law enforcement,” she replied.

The same instructions apply to confronting a suspicious person, Dorival said. She said her presentation would advise people, “Not to confront, to let … the police department do the job.

“They’re not supposed to take matters into their own hands. … Let law enforcement take the risk of approaching a suspect,” Dorival said.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Now, do you think this Pillsbury doughboy, acting as a Neighborhood watcher, attacked a high school football player who was 4 inches taller than he is?

Of course he did. He had a gun. That makes fools of anyone inspired by 'more power'. If thinking intelligently (ie without a gun), then Zimmerman would have done what cops told him to do. Stayed in the car rather than challenge someone who was larger. Would have done what all Neighborhood Watch are supposed to do. Only watch. Stay in the car and only watch. He had a gun which explains his confrontational attitude. An attitude only further confirmed by his exact words at 7:13.

An exact quote from Zimmerman before he goes off to confront Martin:

These assholes, they always get away.

Did Martin go inside his girlfriend's house, say that, double back, and then go out to confront Zimmerman? Of course not. Another myth generated to distort reality. We know what Martin said to his girlfriend *** on the phone - not inside her house ***. Martin told her that a “creepy-ass cracker” was following him but that he thought he had evaded him. But she said a short time later, Martin let out a profanity followed by him dropping the phone. Is that Martin stalking Zimmerman? Of course not.

We also know what Zimmerman said when he did exactly what the cops told him to not do and what is an absolute and fundamental violation of Neighborhood Watch. He took off after Martin at 7:13. By 7:17, police arrived and Martin was already dead.

If Martin had killed Zimmerman, well, according to Florida law, he was justified. Some creepy-ass cracker was following him. That means he had every right to attack Zimmerman. But we know he dropped his phone suddenly when Zimmerman suddenly confronted and somehow surprised Martin.

Somehow we know Zimmerman got out of his car to *not* follow Martin? Nonsense. How ridiculous is that assumption? How could anyone be that naive? But again, cited is where such nonsense and distortion comes from. Wacko extremist rhetoric.

Zimmerman's attitude was quite clear from his own words. Martin was the asshole who always gets away. Martin, on the other hand, had every reason to fear. Because Zimmerman was an adult acting like a child. And doing so because he was doing what nobody can do on Neighborhood Watch - carry a gun. Martin had every right, under Florida law, to kill Zimmerman. Even described Zimmerman's actions: a creepy asshole who was following him. Zimmerman was not acting as an adult on Neighborhood Watch. And was acting as a threat to Martin.

Martin was not in his girlfriend's house. However extremist rhetoric needs to distort reality.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

Of course he did. He had a gun. That makes fools of anyone inspired by 'more power'. If thinking intelligently (ie without a gun), then Zimmerman would have done what cops told him to do.

Wrong. It was the dispatcher who told him to not go outside. Dispatchers are not cops, they are not sworn officers, at all. They have no authority to order anyone, to do anything. They advise only.

Stayed in the car rather than challenge someone who was larger. Would have done what all Neighborhood Watch are supposed to do. Only watch. Stay in the car and only watch. He had a gun which explains his confrontational attitude. An attitude only further confirmed by his exact words at 7:13.

Wrong. There is no requirement that a neighborhood watcher stay in a car - or even use a car at all. The apartment community Zimmerman and Martin were in, made cars almost useless for watching anyone.

Did Martin go inside his girlfriend's house, say that, double back, and then go out to confront Zimmerman? Of course not. Another myth generated to distort reality. We know what Martin said to his girlfriend *** on the phone - not inside her house ***.

I didn't say Martin was inside the gf's house. I said he told her that.

Martin told her that a “creepy-ass cracker” was following him but that he thought he had evaded him. But she said a short time later, Martin let out a profanity followed by him dropping the phone. Is that Martin stalking Zimmerman? Of course not.

I don't know what Martin's profanity was about, but somewhere early in the struggle, he broke Zimmerman's nose, and knocked him to the ground.

Sounds to me like Martin wanted to punch with both fists, not hold his cell phone in one hand, and punch with the other hand.

We also know what Zimmerman said when he did exactly what the cops told him to not do and what is an absolute and fundamental violation of Neighborhood Watch. He took off after Martin at 7:13. By 7:17, police arrived and Martin was already dead.

Wrong. Cops didn't tell him not to follow Martin. That was a dispatcher, who has zero authority (and never went to the police academy, either). Dispatchers are NOT cops.

Zimmerman made a mistake by following Martin on foot, without having backup. That much is perfectly correct.

If Martin had killed Zimmerman, well, according to Florida law, he was justified. Some creepy-ass cracker was following him. That means he had every right to attack Zimmerman.

Absolutely WRONG! People are perfectly free to follow you in public. Later on, that COULD be construed as stalking, but then you have to get into perceived intent, etc.

And frankly, I don't believe Zimmerman is a creepy - ass, scary dude. He's a lot more like the Pillsbury doughboy.

But we know he dropped his phone suddenly when Zimmerman suddenly confronted and somehow surprised Martin.

Or when Martin decided to fight in earnest, with both fists swinging.

Somehow we know Zimmerman got out of his car to *not* follow Martin? Nonsense. How ridiculous is that assumption? How could anyone be that naive? But again, cited is where such nonsense and distortion comes from. Wacko extremist rhetoric.

So your opinion is that Zimmerman murdered a stranger he'd never met before, who had committed no crime. Then he broke his own nose, and slammed his own head into the ground several times, and somehow got the only eye witness, to see Martin on top, punching downward with his fists, into the smaller guy?

Yeah! That makes a lot of sense!

Zimmerman's attitude was quite clear from his own words. Martin was the asshole who always gets away. Martin, on the other hand, had every reason to fear. Because Zimmerman was an adult acting like a child. And doing so because he was doing what nobody can do on Neighborhood Watch - carry a gun.

If you have a private concealed carry license, you can carry a gun. They don't like you to, but it's your right to do so.

Martin had every right, under Florida law, to kill Zimmerman. Even described Zimmerman's actions: a creepy asshole who was following him. Zimmerman was not acting as an adult on Neighborhood Watch. And was acting as a threat to Martin.

Being watched by the neighborhood watch, is not a threat. That's neighborhood watch doing what they're supposed to do.

Martin was not in his girlfriend's house. However extremist rhetoric needs to distort reality.

I didn't say he was IN her house. I understood that he walked over TO her house, and was talking to her outside. Then called her later just before confronting Zimmerman.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a saint here, but there is no way you can say he committed murder, beyond a reasonable doubt. There simply is not enough evidence to support that, and strong evidence to indicate that Zimmerman was beaten up first, and shot Martin only later, after Martin was slamming his head into the ground.

Those injuries are FACTS, not my theories, or your theories. They tend to show that Zimmerman defended himself.

Of course, Obama can't wait to weight in on this:
Obama: Trayvon Martin could have been me

He wants to just ratchet up the racial hatred, one little bit more. He knows there are already people on the net, calling for Zimmerman to be killed, ASAP.

He couldn't care less.

[richlevy]

Adak, only one story got told because only one person walked away. Let's say that Trayvon turned and noticed that Zimmerman had drawn a gun. Even without Stand Your Ground, it's not possible to outrun a bullet. So he closes and attempts to disarm Zimmerman, which might include tackling him into the concrete. It was never clear how Zimmerman could have gotten to his gun lying on his back. Unless he already had his gun already drawn. After all, isn't that what real cops do when approaching a dangerous suspect? So wouldn't a wannabe follow the same procedure?

If Zimmerman drew his weapon before being attacked, then "Stand Your Ground" was with Trayvon. Not that it would have done him any good if he'd been the sole survivor.

[Lamplighter]

3) Martin became aware of Zimmerman following him,
by the time he got back to his girl friends house.
He handed her the candy he'd bought at the local store,
and told her he was going "to fix that cracker", that was following him.

@Adak, this is a statement I have not heard before,
and have not been able to find via my Google searches.

What I have found are sequences of events that speak to phone calls
between Martin and his girl friend, both before and at the time of the shooting.



What I have also found is the following statement in this link,
and that agrees with what I had heard reported over the course of these events...

At the time of his death, the teenager is unarmed and carrying a small amount of cash,
a bag of Skittles candy and a can of iced tea.

These seem to me to be significant enough to affect people's opinions about the jury finding.

Adak, Will you please document or cite a link
to support your statement that Martin actually arrived at his girl friend's home,
and then went back to "fix that cracker".

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by richlevy

... Let's say that Trayvon turned and noticed that Zimmerman had drawn a gun. Even without Stand Your Ground, it's not possible to outrun a bullet. So he closes and attempts to disarm Zimmerman, ...

It's entirely possible to avoid being shot if you don't give someone a reason to shoot at you by closing on them. Police draw down on suspects all the time without shooting them. Even Martin would have known that. He would also have known that if Zimmerman wanted to shoot him at that time, there was opportunity to do it before he could react.

Originally Posted by richlevy

... It was never clear how Zimmerman could have gotten to his gun lying on his back. Unless he already had his gun already drawn. After all, isn't that what real cops do when approaching a dangerous suspect? So wouldn't a wannabe follow the same procedure? ...

If Zimmerman had been imitating police procedure by having his gun already drawn, he would have done so from a safe distance and shot at Martin when Martin closed on him before Martin reached him. That's what the police would do. I've not heard any claim that more than one shot was fired.

A plausible explanation would be a combat handgun technique called the rock back draw. It can be performed standing or as one is being taken down to the ground. The shooter uses one arm to push off from an assailant at point blank range, the shooter bending backwards at the waist, creating more distance for the other arm to draw and fire unimpeded from the waist. Zimmerman could have drawn his gun just before he hit the ground and then waited until he felt he couldn't recover before firing. Of course, this would've had to have happened without Martin realizing what Zimmerman was up to it since there doesn't seem to have been an ensuing struggle for the weapon between when it was drawn and when it was fired.

The more likely explanation is that Zimmerman was able to arch the small of his back or twist his body just enough to create a space to draw the gun. All it takes is a hand-on-gun thickness of space to free the gun and very little maneuvering to get it into firing position, especially when an assailant doesn't realize it's there. That Zimmerman was unable to better protect his head using both of his arms to block Martin's thrusts and blows indicates that Zimmerman may have been using one arm for retrieving the gun while he was on the ground and that Martin, concentrating on battering Zimmerman's head, simply didn't have a clue as to why he was having such an easy time of it until he was shot.

Hypothetically speaking of course.

[Lamplighter]

It's entirely possible to avoid being shot...

... just don't wear a hoodie.

All the rest is hypothetical. Right ?