You Can't Prove You Exist

[Aliantha]

We're just a collective figment of someones very bored imagination.

I'm ok with that. Are you?

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Cloud

yep, now I see it. My page two is different.

are you in IAMBME by any chance?

No...not even sure what that is. Body modification group?

[Cloud]

yeah. a HUGE and very early social networking site for us modded folks. It was just the combination of tattoo+IAM that made me think of it.

Cartesian theory has a lot of implications for body modification btw.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Flint

It's not about computers versus people. But if it were, I would ask you if you are composed of materials which must obey the laws of physics.

I don't know, no one does, yet.

[skysidhe]

Flint


who is 'YOU' Define the word 'YOU'
what would the proof be? Define 'proof'
what kind of existence? Define Exist?



You can't set any mesurable paramiters so people can't create a profile.

Don't even try. Don't even bother.

[Flint]

I didn't ask me to do it, I asked you to do it.

Actually I asked you not to do it, so, by default, you didn't even have to say anything.

But you did. Why? What devious motivation are you hiding up your sleeve? You're toying with me; pulling me into a trap, which, once sprung, will crush my feeble musings in the cruel jaws of your bone-crushing intellect! I'm not falling for that, no way. I reject your challenge! :::mumble mumble:::

[TheMercenary]

You only exist until I exit from this forum. Then you no longer exist. Not in my life anyway.

Who ate all that salad?

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Flint

I didn't ask me to do it, I asked you to do it.

Actually I asked you not to do it, so, by default, you didn't even have to say anything.

But you did. Why? What devious motivation are you hiding up your sleeve? You're toying with me; pulling me into a trap, which, once sprung, will crush my feeble musings in the cruel jaws of your bone-crushing intellect! I'm not falling for that, no way. I reject your challenge! :::mumble mumble:::

rats

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Who ate all that salad?

rats?

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Cloud

yeah. a HUGE and very early social networking site for us modded folks. It was just the combination of tattoo+IAM that made me think of it.

Cartesian theory has a lot of implications for body modification btw.

Really? How so?

[Cloud]

Cartesian theory emphasizes mind over body--the pureness of intellect over the grossness of the body. This philosophy is a direct descendant of classical thinking, and it's what causes some people in Western Civilization to cry "mutilation" when confronted with body modification. But other cultures view the body quite differently, hence the "modern tribal" movement associated with body modification.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Cartesian theory emphasizes mind over body--the pureness of intellect over the grossness of the body. This philosophy is a direct descendant of classical thinking, and it's what causes some people in Western Civilization to cry "mutilation" when confronted with body modification. But other cultures view the body quite differently, hence the "modern tribal" movement associated with body modification.

Ok .....well if people in western civilization believe in Cartesian Philosophy and as you say "grossness of the body", which I have never heard an ancient say pertaining to this philosophy, what would be wrong with modification or mutilation?
In short.... this isn't adding up to me. Could you please clarify this for me?

[Cloud]

Odd that this should come up in the "you can't prove you exist" thread, because one of the motivations, I think, that people have (among the legion) for body modification is just that--to prove to themselves that they exist, to reinforce the envelope of the body with meaning.

It's a tension between western society and history, and non-western society. The Greek ideal was of bodily perfection; furthered by the medieval Christian church's horror of imperfection and abnormaility, and by the Enlightenment philosophers, such as Decartes. "Civilization" in the Western view is the triumph of man over nature, but we are moving away from that.

Here is what Victoria Pitts, a scholar and the author of "In the Flesh" says:

"Among the problems of the self-mutiliation argument is that it uncritically relies on a classical ideal of the skin as a pristine, smooth, closed envelope for the self, and a notion of the body and self as fixed and unchanging. These notions were inherited from Enlightenment traditions . . The Enlightenment affirmed a mind/body binary in which the mind was seen as more significant, while the body was dismissed as a hindrance to res cogitans, Decartes' term for the intellect and selfhood."

Opening the body in the form of pricking it with a needle goes against this Western idea of bodily boundaries. In tribal societies, both ancient and modern, this legacy is obviously lacking, and marking the body carries with it a whole slew of meanings, from status symbols to rites of passage, to marks of humanity.

If you are a Westerner, if you mark your body, you are mutilating it. You are demonstrating your disdain for traditional norms and are likely to be viewed as dangerous, criminal, sexually, deviant or psychologically disturbed. Some of these views are changing, of course, but try getting medical or dental treatment if you are heavily modded and see how lingering these ideas can be.

I hope I've added to your understanding. It's really a pretty complex question, and I certainly do not consider myself any kind of classical or Enlightenment scholar. I can recommend a number of good books if you are interested in body modification or philosophy of the human body.

Actually I can, I have a religion that worships me.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Odd that this should come up in the "you can't prove you exist" thread, because one of the motivations, I think, that people have (among the legion) for body modification is just that--to prove to themselves that they exist, to reinforce the envelope of the body with meaning.

To reinforce the body with meaning isn't the same as wanting to prove one exists. This is far reaching. Are you going to tell anyone you exist because you have a tatoo? I hope not. I think we are smarter than cave me.

It's early am so I googled my assumption.
This is what I found.
http://www.umm.maine.edu/resources/b...tash/psych.htm
There is no one reason why some one would want to participate in body modification. Here is a list of some of the more common reasons why:

Protection , Exhibitionism
Sexuality , Aesthetics
Identification , Fighting Societal Norms
Pain (masochists) , Trend
Sign of Loyalty , Distinction
Shock Value , Emulation

I've been thinking of having my tatoo removed. To use your reasoning in reverse would mean I want to take away the reinforcement that I exist.


It's not logical sorry.