What good do you see in it all?

[smoothmoniker]

[pithy comment]

It's almost enough to make you believe in original sin ...

[/pithy comment, back later for serious thought]

[lookout123]

mari - how do you propose that we stop the cycle of we did A, they did B, so now we have to...?

after someone attacks us (i.e, 9/11, kidnappings in Iraq resulting in beheadings) should we seek them out and get a giant group hug going in hope that they will reciprocate? because that was carter's method for dealing with the USSR, and it didn't work.
or should we seek them out and wipe them from the face of the planet? i know it won't bring back our loved ones, but at least they won't be able to harm us any more.

at the root of it all, it is important to understand that groups of people will take action that is logical and rational from their perspective. we have conflict because what group A sees as best for them, group B sees as harmful and will act to discourage. and so the cycle begins.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by lookout123

mari - how do you propose that we stop the cycle of we did A, they did B, so now we have to...?

after someone attacks us (i.e, 9/11, kidnappings in Iraq resulting in beheadings) should we seek them out and get a giant group hug going in hope that they will reciprocate? because that was carter's method for dealing with the USSR, and it didn't work.

Maybe Carter's methods didn't work with the USSR, but they did work with the Camp David peace accords between Egypt and Israel. Besides, the USSR actually had the ability to destroy us, so tangling with them would have been very dangerous.

I don't see Bush's methods bringing peace anywhere. Do you?

Originally Posted by lookout123

mari - how do you propose that we stop the cycle of we did A, they did B, so now we have to...?

after someone attacks us (i.e, 9/11, kidnappings in Iraq resulting in beheadings) should we seek them out and get a giant group hug going in hope that they will reciprocate? because that was carter's method for dealing with the USSR, and it didn't work.
or should we seek them out and wipe them from the face of the planet? i know it won't bring back our loved ones, but at least they won't be able to harm us any more.

at the root of it all, it is important to understand that groups of people will take action that is logical and rational from their perspective. we have conflict because what group A sees as best for them, group B sees as harmful and will act to discourage. and so the cycle begins.

I have no idea how we would stop that cycle, but wiping a group of people off the face of the planet does not seem like a great step forward for humanity. It sounds to me like you are advocating getting rid of the Muslim people in just the same way Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jewish ones. Will George Jr. one day write a memo about all the "good" Americans who have a single "pet" Muslim on whose behalf they are asking for clemency? Will a little Muslim boy one day write the Diary of Abdul Mohammed just before our troops hit his town in our frenzy of making the world "safe for democracy"?

Hatred only begets hatred. I understand that we can't just lie down and allow ourselves to be killed without protest, but do we have to kill innocent civilians by way of retaliation? Many, many innocent people have been killed in the Middle East, just as our innocent American people were killed in 9/11. Is there not enough good in your own heart, Lookout, that you wouldn't hesitate to personally put a round of bullets into the head of a little Muslim girl?

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by marichiko

It sounds to me like you are advocating getting rid of the Muslim people in just the same way Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jewish ones.

absolutely not. "Muslim people" didn't attack the WTC, "Muslim people" aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves and their children, "Muslim people" aren't cutting the heads off of contractors.
a group of terrorists who are bound together by their deranged faith in an offshoot of Islam are. these are not individuals who are following the teachings of muhammed to spread peace and understanding. (keep in mind that muhammed espoused protection of the jews, because they are "people of the book") these are people that want the entire world to believe in their god, or die.

FTR, yes, they should be wiped from the face of the planet. that is not genocide - that is an acknowledgement of who the enemy is and a willingness to deal with them.

also FTR - do i take joy in the death of the innocent? no, not at all. but if at some point their parents had stood up to the evil that is around them, we wouldn't have to be in the first place.
as far as putting a bullet through a little girl? i haven't heard a single credible story about a US soldier popping arab kids for fun. i have spoken with individuals who have shot children to death though - i find no fault in them, what doesn't get reported is that it isn't uncommon for their "soldier" to send out kids to collect weapons during a battle. if there is battle under way and someone picks up a weapon, the only rational thing to do is drop them, regardless of age.

Well, I take some solace in your statement that you are not against ALL Muslim people, just the terrorist faction. When you wrote of wiping people off the face of the earth that would include children as well, hence my question about shooting them. Up until your post, I'd never heard of our guys shooting children over there. I can understand why a soldier might feel the need out of self defence to shoot a 12 year old boy who has a weapon that he refuses to surrender. Hatred begins young which only makes it all the more tragic.

[lookout123]

people who are talking about the innocent civilians killed in a war zone are ususally referring to women and children. i can tell you that fighting in an islamic region is just plain different. the numbers may show a higher than expected body count for women and children, some of which may be attributed to the tactic of sending the family out because they know americans typically get squeamish about popping anybody but an adult man holding a weapon.
that is not to say that there have been 0 legitimate civilian casualties, because there have, but i think the number gets inflated because people don't get to hear about some of the ploys used by our enemies.

I was thinking more of civilians being killed by bombs and in air raids, just to clarify.