Scouting, yea or nay?

[Griff]

We're getting some pressure to get the girls involved in a scouting organization. I never joined and always just assumed that scouting was based in early 20th century totalitarianism and a really bad idea. We may not let them do it just because there are many more valuable ways to spend time but my question is, is there more to scouting than submission to various social "virtues" as defined by the total state?

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Griff

We're getting some pressure to get the girls involved in a scouting organization. I never joined and always just assumed that scouting was based in early 20th century totalitarianism and a really bad idea. We may not let them do it just because there are many more valuable ways to spend time but my question is, is there more to scouting than submission to various social "virtues" as defined by the total state?

I was a Girl Scout and I loved it. Kids don't really look at the political aspect of it, but I understand your concern about those issues. My biggest issue with scouting is the problems a few years back about the boy scouts not allowing gay leaders. I don't know what the current stance is on that, but I think they lost a lot of support because of it. Anyway, I liked it as a kid, and the Girl Scouts still have the BEST cookies!

[Troubleshooter]

I always thought about getting into a few girl scouts myself.

[Clodfobble]

I was never a girl scout in reality, but every year I would "join" (and my mother would pay my yearly dues) just before the summer so I could go to the girl scout summer camp, which was a lot of fun. But my impression has always been that Boy Scouts are much more educational and interesting, the girls seemed to do nothing but make arts and crafts and sell cookies. We certainly didn't have anything like Philmont.

[Happy Monkey]

The quality of the Scouting experience is about 97% based on the leadership of the particualr troop. I was a Boy Scout for years, in an awesome troop (Troop 666, of course), and had a blast. We had trips to New Mexico, Alaska, and Canada, in addition to monthly weekend camping trips and summer camps. We came into contact with other troops which seemed to be much less interesting.

My sisters were in Girl Scouts for a while, and despite my mom's best efforts, it was little more than a social club.

As for the politics, the Boy Scouts' position against gays and atheists remains, and is unlikely to change - the high positions in the organization are dominated by the Mormon Church. It didn't affect me much as a Scout, but it does annoy me now. The Girl Scouts are unencumbered by that problem.

[wolf]

I was a girl scout. As a consequence of this I am able to make a nice salad shaped like a bunny and know how to introduce people at a party and lay a table. They taught me nothing about pitching a tent or laying a fire that I didn't teach myself.

If you want further PC indoctrination for your girls, go for it. Oh, and don't forget the yearly ritual of the cookie sale. You can do without the cookie sale.

As a kid I always thought the Campfire Girls were doing cooler stuff than the Girl Scouts. Are they still around?

I have heard of a pagan organization called the Spiral Scouts that may or may not do more "real" scouting.

[Cyber Wolf]

I was a Girl Scout too for several years and for me the meetings and activities seemed much like school for teaching values, but much more fun. Garnet's right, when you're that age it doesn't matter what the political ideals behind it are. You're more concerned with writing that simple program to get your Computer Science badge or your time spent helping out at a horse stable to get your Animal Care badge. The rewards you get as a kid in scouting are something you can feel proud about for the rest of your life, be it a sash full of pins and badges, the friends you make, knowledge of the places you go...I say go for it. If they simply don't like it, take them out of the program and no harm done.

[wolf]

The political ideas are important ... even/especially if the child doesn't understand them. That way they accept these ideas without questioning. "Give me your children until you are 12 and they will be mine forever." (isn't that how the saying goes?)

Some kids can break free of the indoctrination, if they are sharp enough and start to question early enough.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by wolf

If you want further PC indoctrination for your girls, go for it. Oh, and don't forget the yearly ritual of the cookie sale. You can do without the cookie sale.

This outfit looks worse in the other direction. I didn't want to color folks reactions before mentioning the group. It's the Little Flowers a Catholic outfit which seems more reactionary with each further bit of info I find. It appears that they want to drive women back into the kitchen for tea parties etc... I won't be doing this to my kids. Pete did the girl scouts and to her it felt like homework. I love the Church but I recognize that parts of her can be cultish and manipulative. This subset doesn't look healthy to me. Before I looked into it I assumed the LFs were older than they are and maybe a reaction to the statist indoctrination from Boy/Girl scouts, Hitler Youth, Stalins bunch or whoever. It appears that its just an anti-modernist outfit.

[cowhead]

although I wasn't a girl scout.. I was in scouting from cubscout on to life rank in boyscouts.. for me it was a very very rewarding experience.. although, I have always thought thta there ought to be a gender neutral scouting group... although that obviously has logistical problems (mush less people being weird about their children being around members of the oppposite sex when there is a percieved lack of 'supervision'.. although that is understandable.)

A good deal of my friends who are female went to girlscouts and are of the general opinion that boy scouts would have been much more fun (and a lot less 'crafty' and more usefull).

my main problem was with the religious aspect of it.. but then again I got to be the kids who stayed back at camp while everyone else was at 'church' to tend the fires.. foreshadowing perhaps?

(and sweet jeebus! how many times can yo using kum-by-ya-my-lord anyway?)

[99 44/100% pure]

Old me:
Who cares?

New me (politically aware and active parent:
Boy Scouts:
Girl Scouts:

I was so upset about the very public stance of BSA against gays and non-allegiance-swearing Christians that I stopped donating through the United Way of Central Maryland (because a small portion of my donation would have inevitably found its way to BSA) and wrote many letters to United Way and local print media to explain why.

I have also worked to limit BSA's access to free use of public facilities and access to our children through the sending of flyers via sneaker net (stuff sent home with kids in school folders -- implying the endorsement of the school system). I know I am an extreme case, after all, I have no direct connection with the gay rights movement, or with BSA, but this kind of complicit support by public institutions, and the use of tax dollars to promote organizations involved in blatant discrimination gets my goat.

If you are interested in this situation, here are some useful links:
http://www.scoutingforall.org/index.shtml
http://www.ffrf.org/issues/?t=bsa.txt

(disclaimer: I am not completely familiar with the organizations which published these items; they're just good starting points to explore this issue.)

Sorry about the rant. As far as I know, Girl Scouts has come a long way from the 'social meetings' some of us remember from our long-ago childhoods, and sets the standard for values and skills based member organizations for kids. As with other volunteer-driven organizations, the experience for each kid will depend largely upon the effectiveness of the local leaders.

[wolf]

I applaud the Boy Scouts desire to stand true to their charter and founding ideals.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Griff

It's the Little Flowers a Catholic outfit which seems more reactionary with each further bit of info I find. It appears that they want to drive women back into the kitchen for tea parties etc... I won't be doing this to my kids.

Have you looked in depth into the curriculum and seen what activites are available? There's a lot more than what it seems you've seen or heard about. When I was going through, it wasn't like tea parties, women in the kitchen, sew the clothes, make the dinner and submit to the husband stuff and I was in the Scouts for about 5 years and I was already a gender stereotype rebel at that age. I spent most of my time doing arts and crafts and moving along in technology and focusing on animal care. Hardly tea, very much a party. There are times when they teach girls 'manners', things like politeness, how to set a table, yes there are cooking curriculums. But these things aren't 'girl' things when it comes down to it. For example, understanding of mixing things and cooking lead to easier comprehension of chemistry (it did for me anyway, got me through the class in high school). At a business dinner, it's always good to know what fork to eat with first. Anyway, you can tell your kids that what they learn in Scouts is more guidelines than rules. As for me, I can confidently say that if I hadn't gone through the technology interests at that time, I wouldn't be in graduate school working towards an info. systems masters right now.

Scouting is not for everyone, consult your family doctrines before use.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by 99 44/100% pure

As far as I know, Girl Scouts has come a long way from the 'social meetings' some of us remember from our long-ago childhoods, and sets the standard for values and skills based member organizations for kids. As with other volunteer-driven organizations, the experience for each kid will depend largely upon the effectiveness of the local leaders.

I'd actually be curious as to what modern day girl scout activities are. Looking back, in my day there was a bit too much emphasis on arts and crafts and "girly" stuff, so I wonder if in reality that's changed much. My troop was big on camping trips, though, and we always got nature and science information on those trips. But you're right, it depends A LOT on who's in charge. It's not always a win-win situation.

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by wolf

As a consequence of this I am able to make a nice salad shaped like a bunny

I can't believe you didn't treat us to this at forks!