School shooting du jour

[BigV]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Check out the other thread where people are bitching that his grandmother read his journal and turned him in to the cops, and he got arrested.

When that doesn't happen, school shootings do.

Since when is it a bad thing to PARENT your child?

I call bullshit.

It is not possible that someone intelligent enough to drive a computer can be dumb enough to believe that "when kids don't get arrested for writing in their journals, then school shootings happen". There is absolutely no overlap. You are clearly talking out your ass just to troll for attention, or some other ulterior motive. What you said is so utterly beyond the pale that I have to attribute it to some bizzare sad message-board-tourette's-variant. Nasty to witness, but completely devoid of content.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by BigV

I call bullshit.

I call bullshit back. When parents do not "stay in touch" with their kids, the signs leading up to events such as this go unnoticed. In many if not most instances, the desire, intent, planning and preparation for these killings is patently obvious in retrospect.

OC's point is that when obvious signs are ignored or overlooked then a preventable incident can occur.

I guess you are saying that if little johhny's parents find a graphic description in his room of little Johnny levelling a shotgun and blowing off his classmate's heads with rivers of blood running down the hall, they should just have a chuckle and say: "that's my boy!" Gotcha.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Gotcha.

You got squat.

The two different stories share some details, are both sad but for very different reasons. The previous story was about an 18 year old high school student who wrote in his journal and was arrested on TERRORISM CHARGES as a result. This is sad because writing in your journal is not illegal. I mean, damn. How much of the incindiary dialogue on this forum should qualify as reasonable cause to have the police come knocking at your door and arrest the author? Thinking, writing talking is waaaay different than acting. Big, big difference.

This story is sad for other reasons that are obvious.

But the two of them together demonstrate the saddest fact of all, that despite our best intentions, a determined kid can carry out this kind of horrible rampage. Did the earlier case prevent a tragedy? Impossible to say. Did the other case itself represent a tragedy. Most certainly.

These sad, terrible events can NOT be prevented. Reduced, minimized, isolated, ok, I'll buy that. But if the price is to arrest every student or child author who puts pen to paper, and says something threatening, I vote no. If the price is to squash expressions of independent thought, what would be taught in schools? Why is dissent so dangerous? I am no anarchist, but I say too much conformity is even more dangerous, more insidious. Witness the slowly boiled frog.

Originally Posted by Beestie

I call bullshit back. When parents do not "stay in touch" with their kids, the signs leading up to events such as this go unnoticed. In many if not most instances, the desire, intent, planning and preparation for these killings is patently obvious in retrospect.

I have no quarrel with this. But it is misleadingly shallow. The shooter's father killed himself four years ago. His mother has been in a nursing home for some time after suffering a brain injury as the result of a car accident. Who was in loco parentis? The grandfather. The first victim. The former chief of police, someone you could reasonably expect to "stay in touch" with his "kid". He was killed first, and then the guns and the bulletproof vest went with the kid in the squad car to the school where more death followed. Where is the blame here Beestie?

Originally Posted by Beestie

OC's point is that when obvious signs are ignored or overlooked then a preventable incident can occur.

OC's point in the earlier thread was that she felt there was a right for her to be aware of all that happens in her home, despite the fact that her kid was 18 or older. And on that point we agree.

What OC said in this post, however, was way past that. Go read it. I paraphrase: Parents read journals and cops arrest kids or people die in schools. Whoa... not just disturbing, but so freakin wrong, factually wrong that I called bullshit. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction--"That shooter, damn shame his parents didn't have him arrested and save us all this tragedy." Sure. Arrest them all, and then the schools will be free of death. It will have moved to the prisons.

Originally Posted by Beestie

I guess you are saying that if little johhny's parents find a graphic description in his room of little Johnny levelling a shotgun and blowing off his classmate's heads with rivers of blood running down the hall, they should just have a chuckle and say: "that's my boy!"

Riiiiiight.

More non-seriousness, non-funnyness, non-helpfulness. I strain to imagine any parent behaving that way. Maybe on tv... Do you seriously contend that this example reflects any kind of reality, or desired reality? Get back to me on that, willya?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by BigV

The first victim. The former chief of police, someone you could reasonably expect to "stay in touch" with his "kid".

That's a joke, right? Gotta be. If the "Former Chief" did stay in touch with the kid then he was probably bullied by more than schoolmates. Cops don't "stay in touch" with kids in a way that makes them feel warm and fuzzy.

I paraphrase: Parents read journals and cops arrest kids or people die in schools. Whoa... not just disturbing, but so freakin wrong, factually wrong that I called bullshit. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction--"That shooter, damn shame his parents didn't have him arrested and save us all this tragedy." Sure. Arrest them all, and then the schools will be free of death. It will have moved to the prisons.

C'mon now, who's knee jerking here? OC described the highlights of the other story so people would know which one she was referring to. The point was guardians taking an active roll in monitoring the kids activities to try to head off violence.
Your personal attack and charges of trolling for attention are ridiculous and way out of line.
If there's one thing OC get's around here is plenty of attention.

[BigV]

xoB:

You've been around the cellar a lot longer than I have, and I've had the pleasure of reading many posts by you. I laughed, I agreed, I laughed some more, I gave a point more thought, when I read your posts. This last post deserves the same treatment--after all, you're the same fella with the same wise friendly voice. Maybe I missed something in my response, or got my fingers tangled in the editor and posted something different from what I intended. So I did some more research, I reviewed all the posts. Here's what I found.

I could not find another reference to confirm my statement about the kid's grandfather being the chief of police. I thought for sure that's how I heard him described on the radio, and that he was the person who trained the unarmed security guard at the school, the first victim at the school. All I could find was that he was a tribal police officer, but no confirmation that he was the chief of police. I withdraw the overstatement.

It's clear he was a cop, though. My personal experience with cops in my family is that they are observant people. They do stay in touch with their children. They're aware of what's going on in their households. My personal experience represents a very small sample, to be sure. However, when you make your statement:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Originally Posted by BigV
The first victim. The former chief of police, someone you could reasonably expect to "stay in touch" with his "kid".

That's a joke, right? Gotta be. If the "Former Chief" did stay in touch with the kid then he was probably bullied by more than schoolmates. Cops don't "stay in touch" with kids in a way that makes them feel warm and fuzzy.

I wonder what you base it on. At best it is an uncharitable generalization that cops make poor parents due to bad relations with their kids. You imply that the grandfather bullied the boy because he was a cop. I'm sure you don't know any more than I do about the situation in that household than I do, so we'll both have to just wonder for the time being, was the kid bullied by the grandfather or not. Perhaps further reports will reveal new facts about the situation. In the meantime, I will overlook your defamation of cops as parents.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Originally Posted by BigV
I paraphrase: Parents read journals and cops arrest kids or people die in schools. Whoa... not just disturbing, but so freakin wrong, factually wrong that I called bullshit. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction--"That shooter, damn shame his parents didn't have him arrested and save us all this tragedy." Sure. Arrest them all, and then the schools will be free of death. It will have moved to the prisons.

C'mon now, who's knee jerking here? OC described the highlights of the other story so people would know which one she was referring to. The point was guardians taking an active roll in monitoring the kids activities to try to head off violence.

I was not knee jerking here. I tried to accurately paraphrase OC's comment. At this point I have been challenged twice on my reaction to OC's comments. What she meant is up to her to explain. You, Beestie, and I all have only her words to go on. I have already answered Beestie's interpretation of OC's remarks. Perhaps your interpretation is right. If it is right, then I am all for it. But that's not what she said. I tried hard to focus on what she said.

Which brings me to my next point.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Your personal attack and charges of trolling for attention are ridiculous and way out of line.
If there's one thing OC get's around here is plenty of attention.

I went back and re-re-read this part of the posts too. I did try to confine my remarks to OC's statements, with phrases like: ...You are talking..." and "...what you said...". My rebuke was very harsh, I agree. I apologise for any offense, OnyxCougar. I did not wish to insult you, but to strenuously refute your statements. I stand by my statements, but I do not normally rely on ad hominem attacks to support my arguments. Those instances I reserve for the truly deserving. And you do not deserve to be attacked that way.

OC, I have no quarrel with you personally, but I disagree with what you said in the strongest possible terms.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by BigV

xoB:

I could not find another reference to confirm my statement about the kid's grandfather being the chief of police. I thought for sure that's how I heard him described on the radio, and that he was the person who trained the unarmed security guard at the school, the first victim at the school. All I could find was that he was a tribal police officer, but no confirmation that he was the chief of police. I withdraw the overstatement.

It's clear he was a cop, though. My personal experience with cops in my family is that they are observant people. They do stay in touch with their children. They're aware of what's going on in their households. My personal experience represents a very small sample, to be sure. However, when you make your statement:I wonder what you base it on. At best it is an uncharitable generalization that cops make poor parents due to bad relations with their kids. You imply that the grandfather bullied the boy because he was a cop. I'm sure you don't know any more than I do about the situation in that household than I do, so we'll both have to just wonder for the time being, was the kid bullied by the grandfather or not. Perhaps further reports will reveal new facts about the situation. In the meantime, I will overlook your defamation of cops as parents.

OK, my mistake. I missed that the cop you were talking about was the grandfather/guardian.
Cops as parents, although they tend to be alpha personalities that beget more alphas, I don't have a problem with.
Time and time again I've seen cops "take an interest" or "keep in touch" with kids that are not related to them and it ain't pretty.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Time and time again I've seen cops "take an interest" or "keep in touch" with kids that are not related to them and it ain't pretty.

And the other side of the coin is my buddy Allen who who has raised two adopted daughters, he adopted the daughter of his current wife as well as raising two of their mutual children.

The attachment most of his children is amazing. He works his ass of for his family and most of them know it.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by BigV

I call bullshit.

It is not possible that someone intelligent enough to drive a computer can be dumb enough to believe that "when kids don't get arrested for writing in their journals, then school shootings happen". There is absolutely no overlap. You are clearly talking out your ass just to troll for attention, or some other ulterior motive. What you said is so utterly beyond the pale that I have to attribute it to some bizzare sad message-board-tourette's-variant. Nasty to witness, but completely devoid of content.

I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

If parents aren't monitoring their children's behavior, and they are exhibiting signs (depressed, antisocial behavior over and beyond what a normal teenager exhibits, writing violent and other harmful thoughts in a journal or on the internet) of impending violence, and the parents aren't doing their job parenting, then this shit happens. Period.

This child was 16 (or 17, I've seen both), a nazi, posting about doing violence to former schoolmates, and already in homeschooling. The child was kicked out of school (of course, the school can't discuss why, but the article I saw the principle didn't even know why). If the child was already kicked out of school once, that's a sign your child has problems.

Should you EXPECT your child to go kill 12 people? No. But if you're seeing red flags, and you do not parent your child, this type of thing happens.

I have a 17 year old male child, who exhibits loner, anti-social behavior and does not play well with others at school. His grades are average. I know where he is at all times. Period. He has a cell phone and keeps it with him. He's never been at trouble in school, other than his grades. His biological father is a murderer, and I am aware that this sort of behavior may be partly genetic in nature.

If I *wasn't* paying attention to his behavior, his mood, his whereabouts, where his friend lives, looking at the history on his IE, checking his pictures on the computer, monitoring his notebooks for dark or disturbing art, checking his backpack, things like that, then I would not be doing my job as a parent.

Parents who "gee, I didn't see this coming" weren't paying attention.

What OC said in this post, however, was way past that. Go read it. I paraphrase: Parents read journals and cops arrest kids or people die in schools.

Indirectly, that's what I said, yes. But to clarify your paraphrase, Parents read journals and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT and people die in schools.

How they handle it depends on the parent, obviously, but dismissing it, attributing violent "stories" and "thoughts" clearly written down in such a way that the police feel the child is a danger to themselves or others simply to "independant thought", is potentially lethal.

Whoa... not just disturbing, but so freakin wrong, factually wrong that I called bullshit. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction--"That shooter, damn shame his parents didn't have him arrested and save us all this tragedy."

Absolutely. The child was throwing off red flags all over the place, and nothing was done (at least as far as the media has reported). No therapy. No counseling. Loner. Anti-social. Nazi. Writing violent remarks regarding former schoolmates on a forum-type setting. Access to unlocked, unsafe, guns in the home and ammunition. Absent parents, one suicide and one mental. HELLO???? Where was the parenting??

Sure. Arrest them all, and then the schools will be free of death. It will have moved to the prisons.

Arrest them all with just cause. Not just BEcause.

Better a prison than my kids' school.

If there's one thing OC get's around here is plenty of attention.

Mostly negative....

[BigV]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

Ok, I unilaterally stop bullshit.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If parents aren't monitoring their children's behavior, and they are exhibiting signs (depressed, antisocial behavior over and beyond what a normal teenager exhibits, writing violent and other harmful thoughts in a journal or on the internet) of impending violence, and the parents aren't doing their job parenting, then this shit happens. Period.

I agree. And it is a JOB, no mistake. Real work, but a labor of love. The only minor quibble I have here is that sometimes this behavior is present and nobody dies. In fact, most of the time, the kids' emotional weather is incompletely known by the parents, and almost always the combination of an adolescent in the throes of teen angst and a parent only partly aware of the situation DOES NOT make the evening news. Most of these storms blow through, ruffling the curtains and ruining the crockery, but people don't die. I also agree that sometimes the situation calls for professional intervention, and 911 is their number. Been there, done that.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

This child was 16 (or 17, I've seen both), a nazi, posting about doing violence to former schoolmates, and already in homeschooling. The child was kicked out of school (of course, the school can't discuss why, but the article I saw the principle didn't even know why). If the child was already kicked out of school once, that's a sign your child has problems.

Should you EXPECT your child to go kill 12 people? No. But if you're seeing red flags, and you do not parent your child, this type of thing happens.

What I've found is that the insults, both real and imagined, I've visited on the young people in my life, are remembered ten times longer and more vividly than the loving care I give them. Their reaction is just that--theirs. And they gotta work it out. Writing is one way, drawing is another, music, IM, hangin wi' the homies, etc.

For sure, this kid was awash in a sea of red flags. Dad dead, mom in nursing home, Goth shaped target of peer ridicule, already kicked out of school at least once, to borrow a phrase, it must have sucked to be him.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I have a 17 year old male child, who exhibits loner, anti-social behavior and does not play well with others at school. His grades are average. I know where he is at all times. Period. He has a cell phone and keeps it with him. He's never been at trouble in school, other than his grades. His biological father is a murderer, and I am aware that this sort of behavior may be partly genetic in nature.

If I *wasn't* paying attention to his behavior, his mood, his whereabouts, where his friend lives, looking at the history on his IE, checking his pictures on the computer, monitoring his notebooks for dark or disturbing art, checking his backpack, things like that, then I would not be doing my job as a parent.

Again, you're right on target here. Pay attention. Be present. Love'em, discipline (another form of love) 'em. Listen to them, on all frequencies. Be suspicious and be compassionate. Dang, I'm tired just writing about it. Or thinking about it with our two teens and one adolescent. Yah, wore out.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Parents who "gee, I didn't see this coming" weren't paying attention.

But on this one, I don't agree. Some parents are slack, granted. But even diligent ones, among whose number I count myself, are still human, fallible. I can be fooled. I can be misled. I can be deceived and lied to, successfully. I know it happens. I don't think my parents' omniscience lasted much into my teen years. But hopefully, by that time, I have planted enough seeds of.... what? goodness, self control, self awareness, conflict resolution skills, optimism, etc that when the storms of teen life roar, we'll all be shaken but unmoved.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Indirectly, that's what I said, yes. But to clarify your paraphrase, Parents read journals and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT and people die in schools.

How they handle it depends on the parent, obviously, but dismissing it, attributing violent "stories" and "thoughts" clearly written down in such a way that the police feel the child is a danger to themselves or others simply to "independant thought", is potentially lethal.

I did try to represent your statement fairly. And when you ammend it with the BUT DO NOTHING ABOUT IT, qualifier, you remove the grounds for my objections. We agree again.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Absolutely. The child was throwing off red flags all over the place, and nothing was done (at least as far as the media has reported). No therapy. No counseling. Loner. Anti-social. Nazi. Writing violent remarks regarding former schoolmates on a forum-type setting. Access to unlocked, unsafe, guns in the home and ammunition. Absent parents, one suicide and one mental. HELLO???? Where was the parenting??

I don't know who knew what, certainly it's a crazy mess out there at this point. What a shame, a terrible, cryin shame.

I have read some early evidence that there were steps taken, but clearly not the right ones. Sad.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Arrest them all with just cause. Not just BEcause..

Better a prison than my kids' school..

Hey, I will unhappily admit that WITH CAUSE, Officer Friendly should take him away. But this really is at the core of my objections. By the time the kid's arrested, you've practically conceded defeat as a parent. Certainly you've declared your surrender to any authority over the child. Maybe that's appropriate, and if so, *sigh*, sad. But ok.

On the other hand, when do you drop the dime on your kid? Not in retrospect, no fair. Each day is a damn mystery. I swear, parenting is the last great refuge of amateurs. Seriously, who knows if this time is the last time. I for one am glad for the mercy I received as a youngster, and that I wasn't treated so strictly that I got arrested for doing the bad things I did. Certainly no murderer, but, criminy, prison is not victory, it's a draw at best, and a delay of defeat most of the time.

This cannot be prevented. And the cost of the futile exercise of attempting to do so is far far greater than even the cost of what has happened today.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by BigV

Their reaction
This cannot be prevented. And the cost of the futile exercise of attempting to do so is far far greater than even the cost of what has happened today.

This school had everything going for it. They've had an emergency plan in place, since before the Columbine tragedy. Metal detectors. Security guards. Teachers trained to be first responders. Drills.

And still so many dead. The kid entered the building at 2:55, the police arrived at 2:57, and at 3:05, it was all over.

How can this be prevented? Who would want their children to pay the costs for certainty of preventing bad things from happening to them. Easy but expensive. Just dip them all in carbonite.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Prevented? Can't, It's always happened and always will.
The best we can do is slow 'em down by letting them all know they have someone who will listen to them NOW. Not when we have time...later....someday.
If you dip them in carbonite, how do you hold them...by the heel?