1/10/2006: Cyclops kitten born - Page 3

jinx · 01-11-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wah

[o.k. but seriously,have you read this opinion? [warning! pdf]. It is AMAZING LAW, imho.]

Meanwhile, on the other side of the pond....

York · 01-11-2006, 08:20 AM

Im no expert either, but it seems to me that it is missing indeed like a strip of skull in the middle of the head! Thats propably why the eye is so big and there is no nose! Maybe even a part of the brain ....There are surely humans born like this, look at the years that came after the Tsjernobil disaster...we didnt get to see all those "things" that wer born...

wolf · 01-11-2006, 10:13 AM

There is a documentary called "Chernobyl Heart" that shows a lot of the malformed children born after the meltdown.

I saw it on HBO. I have a very high tolerance for stuff, but this was difficult to watch.

edit to add: HBO's description is much more comprehensive

Happy Monkey · 01-11-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

It's not genetic, so it's not evolution.

Well, there is such thing as a genetic succeptibility to outside factors. Allergies, for example.

glatt · 01-11-2006, 12:43 PM

My point is more along the lines of:

If you cut a dog's tail off, and then breed it, it will not produce puppies with short tails.

If a dog wears plutonium underwear, it may get a mutation of its sperm's DNA, and may have puppies with short tails.

In this case, according to the Snopes linked article, after many weeks of gestation, the fetus "has its tail cut off" when the mother is exposed to toxins which interrupt the development of the fetus. The DNA isn't altered, so the changes aren't a mutation that can be passed along to the next generation, the way evolution works.

Kitsune · 01-11-2006, 12:52 PM

Huge mistake: I did an image search for "cyclopia". The nightmares are going to last for weeks.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-11-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wah

<i>It is *extremely* rare for deformities in mammals to be this perfectly symmetrical.</i>

And ....

<I>creation is amazing and complicated.. its ineviatable that it should stuff up sometimes. </i>

Actually I think the word you wanted to use (i.e. the word I would have use if I were you) was "evolution". As in "evolution is amazing and complicated". I realize that our difference in expression may be due to differences in political thought.

Howere, if we can agree to disagree about the proper word use in this instance (i.e creation/evolution), then I am in complete agreement with your statement.

No, the sperm/egg combining to make a new critter is creation. The changes to that type of critter over generations is evolution.
Unfortunately those two words have become so politically charged they are both being misused way too often.

capnhowdy · 01-11-2006, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately those two words have become so politically charged they are both being misused way too often.

(Bruce)

I tend to avoid both terms. Both interesting but way too broadly opinionated.

Sun_Sparkz · 01-11-2006, 05:34 PM

True. I only use (used) the word creation as just that.. something being created. No political or spiritual meaning behind it.

Evolution i dont see coming into this, i doubt that any day soon we will evolve into cyclopic races of humans, goats and felines. But a sixth digit on our hands that acts as our car key perhaps.. longer thumbs for text messaging... Molar teeth strong enough to open that stuck on nail polish bottle lid.... a can opener bone developed into our wrists for easy baked bean access on the road.. now THATS what I'm talkin bout!!

xoxoxoBruce · 01-11-2006, 08:47 PM

And a finger long enough to find the G-spot.

wah · 01-11-2006, 10:18 PM

As a quick note to defend my original point. The definition of "cyclopia" that Snopes links to includes this bit.

Quote:

Cyclopia and milder forms of the same developmental disorder result from holoprosencephaly which is a failure of the embryonic forebrain to subdivide properly. (The embryonic forebrain is normally responsible for inducing the development of the orbits.) Chromosome abnormalities (such as trisomy 13) and gene mutations can disrupt this process.

further research reveals this tidbit.

Quote:

What causes holoprosencephaly?

The cause of HPE is currently unknown. Often, no specific cause can be identified. Suggested risk factors include maternal diabetes, infections during pregnancy (syphilis, toxoplasmosis, rubella, herpes, cytomegalovirus), and various drugs taken during pregnancy (alcohol, aspirin, lithium, thorazine, anticonvulsants, hormones, retinoic acid). Women with previous pregnancy loss and first trimester bleeding are also more likely to have a child diagnosed with HPE.

Although many children with HPE have normal chromosomes, specific chromosomal abnormalities have been identified in some patients. There is evidence that in some families, HPE is inherited (autosomal dominant as well as autosomal or X-linked recessive inheritance).

Several genes have been identified that play a role in holoprosencephaly.

[<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/group/hpe/about/">source</a>]So I think it's safe to say there there is a non-zero chance that what we've seen here today is one of the many, many, many failures along the road to more robust organisms.

As to conception being creation, well, we can parse words all day long...but let's not.

And I realize that the original writer of the word did not mean to use it in a religious manner, but I had just finished reading that opinion when this pic popped up in my RSS feed, so the connotation was very top of mind in my own personal universe.

The fact that this seems to be a mammalian disorder would seem, IMHO, to give more weight to a genetic element, as all us warm bloods share common traits (i.e. DNA), and I don't know many pill-popping alcoholic cats.

peace,
-W

Sun_Sparkz · 01-12-2006, 05:26 AM

so if evolution is going to come in to the equation, wouldn't that mean that it would, by definition, have to start happening more often? because THAT is a scary thought.

Happy Monkey · 01-12-2006, 07:13 AM

Only if it conferred some advantage. Which doesn't seem likely.

flesh_golem · 01-12-2006, 02:50 PM

Anyone think it may be a by-product of evolution? throw a stone in a pond and nothing in it is left undisturbed in some way. The same rules apply in the genome of any animal. Whatever gene is next to the one that gets broken/switched/lost that causes this may be related to the one that's getting passed down through mammals that survive. Hell, there are diseases caused by a piece of DNA breaking off of one allele and getting attached to another. It all happens in patterns.

In time, bloodlines will either stomp this out, or cycloptic kitties will be saved, nurtured, and stabilised by intrusive humans, and become the next American celebrity pet fad.

Happy Monkey · 01-12-2006, 03:47 PM

That's exactly it, though it could also involve an evironmental factor interacting with the genetics. For example, as mentioned previously, the mother eating a plant that contained a certain toxin.

The ways evolution could be involved in that case are, for example:

1) Animals who dislike the taste of the plant reproduce more successfully, eventually most of the population avoids it.

2) Animals which are less succeptible to the toxin reproduce more successfully, eventually most of the population can eat the plant without problems

Welcome to the Cellar, flesh golem.

01-11-2006, 10:13 AM	#33
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	There is a documentary called "Chernobyl Heart" that shows a lot of the malformed children born after the meltdown. I saw it on HBO. I have a very high tolerance for stuff, but this was difficult to watch. edit to add: HBO's description is much more comprehensive __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis Last edited by wolf; 01-11-2006 at 10:24 AM.

01-11-2006, 05:34 PM	#39
Sun_Sparkz Has Body Temperature Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I come from a land downunder Posts: 1,105	True. I only use (used) the word creation as just that.. something being created. No political or spiritual meaning behind it. Evolution i dont see coming into this, i doubt that any day soon we will evolve into cyclopic races of humans, goats and felines. But a sixth digit on our hands that acts as our car key perhaps.. longer thumbs for text messaging... Molar teeth strong enough to open that stuck on nail polish bottle lid.... a can opener bone developed into our wrists for easy baked bean access on the road.. now THATS what I'm talkin bout!! __________________ We'll never be as young as we are right now

01-11-2006, 08:47 PM	#40
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	And a finger long enough to find the G-spot. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-12-2006, 05:26 AM	#42
Sun_Sparkz Has Body Temperature Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I come from a land downunder Posts: 1,105	so if evolution is going to come in to the equation, wouldn't that mean that it would, by definition, have to start happening more often? because THAT is a scary thought. __________________ We'll never be as young as we are right now

01-12-2006, 07:13 AM	#43
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Only if it conferred some advantage. Which doesn't seem likely. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

01-11-2006, 08:20 AM	#32
York Operations Operative Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tienen , Belgium Posts: 537	Im no expert either, but it seems to me that it is missing indeed like a strip of skull in the middle of the head! Thats propably why the eye is so big and there is no nose! Maybe even a part of the brain ....There are surely humans born like this, look at the years that came after the Tsjernobil disaster...we didnt get to see all those "things" that wer born...

01-11-2006, 12:43 PM	#35
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	My point is more along the lines of: If you cut a dog's tail off, and then breed it, it will not produce puppies with short tails. If a dog wears plutonium underwear, it may get a mutation of its sperm's DNA, and may have puppies with short tails. In this case, according to the Snopes linked article, after many weeks of gestation, the fetus "has its tail cut off" when the mother is exposed to toxins which interrupt the development of the fetus. The DNA isn't altered, so the changes aren't a mutation that can be passed along to the next generation, the way evolution works.

01-11-2006, 12:52 PM	#36
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Huge mistake: I did an image search for "cyclopia". The nightmares are going to last for weeks.

01-12-2006, 02:50 PM	#44
flesh_golem Kinda New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1	Anyone think it may be a by-product of evolution? throw a stone in a pond and nothing in it is left undisturbed in some way. The same rules apply in the genome of any animal. Whatever gene is next to the one that gets broken/switched/lost that causes this may be related to the one that's getting passed down through mammals that survive. Hell, there are diseases caused by a piece of DNA breaking off of one allele and getting attached to another. It all happens in patterns. In time, bloodlines will either stomp this out, or cycloptic kitties will be saved, nurtured, and stabilised by intrusive humans, and become the next American celebrity pet fad.

01-12-2006, 03:47 PM	#45
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	That's exactly it, though it could also involve an evironmental factor interacting with the genetics. For example, as mentioned previously, the mother eating a plant that contained a certain toxin. The ways evolution could be involved in that case are, for example: 1) Animals who dislike the taste of the plant reproduce more successfully, eventually most of the population avoids it. 2) Animals which are less succeptible to the toxin reproduce more successfully, eventually most of the population can eat the plant without problems Welcome to the Cellar, flesh golem. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

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