Isolationism

Originally Posted by dov

The amount spent on an illegal invasion and the subsequent murder of 100k innocent Iraqis, same bucks spent in narrowing the rift between third world and the decadent ones would have made a profound effect in lowering terrorism. It would have defused it.

I believe the states is being run by born again evangelicals...

Dov, you have two and a half sentences in your post that would actually make for a reasonable discussion or debate. The problem that you have which is even worse than your writing style, is that you "single issue hammer," in the words of UT.

We all understand how horrific the holocaust was (and Jews weren't the only group targeted for extermination, BTW). We all understand that certain groups would like to see Israel destroyed. We all understand that certain Evangelicals actually do have the agenda you described in mind.

However, society, politics, and life in general are a complex, intersecting web of beleif's, actions, nations, and philosophies. You are like someone who is standing in the middle of a burning forest and concentrating on a single tree that might or might not catch flame when you could be out helping dig a fire line around the entire thing.

Let's say that you are correct, and the US ultimately falls completely into the hands of whacko's who expect the book of Revelations prophesy that you have outlined to come true. Its really hard to go there, even in hypothetical land, frankly. I can envision a hypothetical US that restricts more and more freedoms, just as it is currently doing. I can go to a hypothetical land where the US government becomes ever more repressive. But you are asking us to waltz off to a hypothetical land where the US rounds up every Jew on the face of the earth, forcibly transports them all to Israel, and then exterminates them all a la Hitler, except for 144,000 lucky ones who make nice to the concentration camp guards

The logistics alone of this are mind boggling. There are so many more possible future scenarios of atrocities that are far more plausible than yours. It is an interesting idea to bring up once, but to keep whining away about it really does place you in the lunatic fringe catagory.

Helpful Hint: Do not show up on a US board and make blanket accusations of how awful we all are. I post to the boards where there are Brit's, Canadians, Aussies, etc who are quite dismayed by current US policies. They talk about the need for reform in their own countries, as well, and they don't hate me or other people from the US who post there just because we are Americans. Some of us might actually have been on your side if you were posting stuff that was slightly more in the realm of sanity and if your over-all attitude was slightly less derogatory.

Thank you for your thoughtful post and recommendations.

Yes I do stand in the middle of a forest fire and focus on one tree.
I have no affect on the forest, just possibly the tree.

I beleive in what I post.

I don’t care what anybody thinks of me. Nobody knows me. (You will grow to love me.)

Many of you address yourselves as we. Have you noticed?

I have never had a need to be a part of we.

I truly appreciate your post.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by dov

...
I have never had a need to be a part of we.

I truly appreciate your post.

Then why the heck are you here? Seriously.


I appreciate your posts too.

Originally Posted by BigV

Then why the heck are you here? Seriously.
I appreciate your posts too.

To learn, to laugh, for company, and on occasion make a friend.

You?

Originally Posted by marichiko

Let's say that you are correct, and the US ultimately falls completely into the hands of whacko's who expect the book of Revelations prophesy that you have outlined to come true. Its really hard to go there, even in hypothetical land, frankly. I can envision a hypothetical US that restricts more and more freedoms, just as it is currently doing. I can go to a hypothetical land where the US government becomes ever more repressive. But you are asking us to waltz off to a hypothetical land where the US rounds up every Jew on the face of the earth, forcibly transports them all to Israel, and then exterminates them all a la Hitler, except for 144,000 lucky ones who make nice to the concentration camp guards

The logistics alone of this are mind boggling.

Could you, in your wildest dreams about six years ago, envisioned where we are standing today? I won’t list the atrocities, I will just say, the logistics, which brought us to this reality, today, alone are mind-boggling. One example, eight trillion. There are 1000 more examples of this twilight zone. I can’t focus on the thousand. I would become saturated. Simply one at a time is how I work.

Ten percent of the world’s population are Born Again Evangelicals. I will worry for both of us, unless you are one of those who spark the flame to fry us.

Originally Posted by dov

Could you, in your wildest dreams about six years ago, envisioned where we are standing today? I won’t list the atrocities, I will just say, the logistics, which brought us to this reality, today, alone are mind-boggling. One example, eight trillion. There are 1000 more examples of this twilight zone. I can’t focus on the thousand. I would become saturated. Simply one at a time is how I work.

Ten percent of the world’s population are Born Again Evangelicals. I will worry for both of us, unless you are one of those who spark the flame to fry us.

Six years ago I had other things on my so-called mind, but, yes, as a matter of fact, I could have accepted the hypothesis of a future which has become current reality. Six years ago, the US was as greedy for oil as it is now; six years ago the US had already engaged in the first Gulf War; six years ago I saw first hand how the US military was treating its Gulf War veterans; six years ago my city had already been over-run with religous whacko's like the Focus on the Family crowd, etc., etc.

I don't know about your statistic of 10% of the world being Evangelicals, but, for the sake of argument, I'll accept it. I live in a town right next door to the epicenter of the religous right in this country, Colorado Springs. The town I currently reside in has a reputation for being a haven for Wiccan's and other pagan types. There are certainly individuals in the next town over who practice religous intolerance. I have had people advise me to move out of my town or just look at me like I've suddenly sprouted two horns and a tail when I tell them where I live. Ignorant folks next door think witches on broomsticks fly around here. Whatever.

The fact remains that no one has come and burned down my town or rounded up its residents to be burned at the stake. We still have the same rights here as the folks next door do, despite the fact that we all live in the same county. When I go down to the county court house for some reason and give my place of residence, I am not automatically shunted off into a "witches only area." The local representative to the state legislature actually resides in my community.

You are going to have a very hard time getting me to believe that this country would round up all Jewish Americans to be deported to Israel and killed. If somebody ever sets fire to Manitou Springs, I'll be sure to let you all know, never fear. I was horrified when everyone told me of the danger involved when I thought I had run across some old explosives, since I have no desire to send sparks flying at ANYONE.

Originally Posted by marichiko

Six years ago I had other things on my so-called mind, but, yes, as a matter of fact, I could have accepted the hypothesis of a future which has become current reality. Six years ago, the US was as greedy for oil as it is now; six years ago the US had already engaged in the first Gulf War; six years ago I saw first hand how the US military was treating its Gulf War veterans; six years ago my city had already been over-run with religous whacko's like the Focus on the Family crowd, etc., etc.

I don't know about your statistic of 10% of the world being Evangelicals, but, for the sake of argument, I'll accept it. I live in a town right next door to the epicenter of the religous right in this country, Colorado Springs. The town I currently reside in has a reputation for being a haven for Wiccan's and other pagan types. There are certainly individuals in the next town over who practice religous intolerance. I have had people advise me to move out of my town or just look at me like I've suddenly sprouted two horns and a tail when I tell them where I live. Ignorant folks next door think witches on broomsticks fly around here. Whatever.

The fact remains that no one has come and burned down my town or rounded up its residents to be burned at the stake. We still have the same rights here as the folks next door do, despite the fact that we all live in the same county. When I go down to the county court house for some reason and give my place of residence, I am not automatically shunted off into a "witches only area." The local representative to the state legislature actually resides in my community.

You are going to have a very hard time getting me to believe that this country would round up all Jewish Americans to be deported to Israel and killed. If somebody ever sets fire to Manitou Springs, I'll be sure to let you all know, never fear. I was horrified when everyone told me of the danger involved when I thought I had run across some old explosives, since I have no desire to send sparks flying at ANYONE.

Wonderful post, thank you.

I have been expearincing an alternative awareness.

Many of the German Jews of the twenties and thirties were affluent, assimilated and a part of the tapestry of what was Germany, an invisible minority. There were also Hasidic, Ultra Orthodox Jews who were visible. Eventually, cloned, brainwashed (but I didn’t know, as he or she was paraded past mountains of half baked rotting Jewish flesh, at the end of the war) average Joe civilian received pleasure yanking the beards off Orthodox Jews, by hand, taking clumps of flesh along with hair. At the time there were eleven million Jews in Europe. Hitler baked more than fifty percent of them. The horror was not that he fried six million; (which of course was horrible), the horror is how systematically he did it. You know all about the power of propaganda. Propaganda has become much more sophisticated today. Dr Joseph Goebbels would be pleased that his fundamental manipulations are flourishing.

Nobody knew then.

I will never forget.

I expect the BACS to attempt to fulfill the tribulations, Godly divined or not.

Because I am a Jew I was confronted in a kill or be killed scenario. I wasn’t killed.

You're welcome. I am actually sitting here debating you to night because the web site I am trying to build in regard to my own pet peeve is down, and I feel quite frustrated at the moment.

I am well aware that many German Jews were assimilated into German society and considered themselves good German citizens, maybe even before they thought of themselves as Jews.

When I was in college one of my botany professors was Jewish. I really liked this man - he was one of my favorite teachers. I took a summer field course from him that involved much time spent out in the mountains, gathering botanical specimens. One night me and him and the rest of the class (there were ten of us) were sitting on a hillside after a long day collecting and just looking up at the stars. Someone brought up the subject of the holocaust (it wasn't the prof), and I remarked that it seemed to me that the average German was trapped into silence about the entire thing. After all, I argued, they had their families there in that country, their jobs, their friends and their lives. They were living under a dictatorship and they knew the price they'd pay for speaking out. They were only human. Surely, one might at least understand if not completely forgive them for not protesting.

My professor became quite angry at my words. He said to me that there was absolutely no excuse for the silence of the German people in regard to what was happening to the Jews and other groups at the time. He said that the lives of 6 million people could have been spared, since to hear everyone talk after Germany lost the war, that everyone had been a "good" German and was horrified at what went on. He said if all those "good" Germans had acted to opposed such a terrible evil carried out by a minority then Auschwitz and the rest of the camps would never have been built. He said there is never an excuse for remaining silent in the face of such atrocities being done to one's fellow human beings.

We were all humbled by his words and sat silently for a while, staring up at the heavens.

Originally Posted by marichiko

My professor became quite angry at my words. He said to me that there was absolutely no excuse for the silence of the German people in regard to what was happening to the Jews and other groups at the time. He said that the lives of 6 million people could have been spared, since to hear everyone talk after Germany lost the war, that everyone had been a "good" German and was horrified at what went on. He said if all those "good" Germans had acted to opposed such a terrible evil carried out by a minority then Auschwitz and the rest of the camps would never have been built. He said there is never an excuse for remaining silent in the face of such atrocities being done to one's fellow human beings.

We were all humbled by his words and sat silently for a while, staring up at the heavens.

Goebbels made sure the German citizens were aware of the death camps. It was part of his propaganda machine. They said they didn’t know. They lied. I could prove that 100 times over. Please not tonight.

The American Second Amendment was for the purpose for the American citizen to bear arms for the sake of revolting against a corrupt American administration.

I hold every American, left, right and centre responsible for current war crimes and crimes against humanity. Nobody can convince me the American citizens are ignorant, powerless, victims.

I am so sorry; you seem like a nice person. Napalm, White Phosphorus, melting babies. 100k innocent Iraqis murdered. Abu Graib, Gitmo, transferring prisoners to torture friendly countries. Illegal invasions including recently, Pakistan. This is common knowledge. When bush is hung will you say you didn’t know?

Originally Posted by marichiko

I am actually sitting here debating you to night because the web site I am trying to build in regard to my own pet peeve is down

I am a second choice? Sigh.

Staring up at the heavens sounds lovely. It is minus 40c here tonight. I have two excelent down sleeping bags.

Originally Posted by dov

The American Second Amendment was for the purpose for the American citizen to bear arms for the sake of revolting against a corrupt American administration.

I hold every American, left, right and centre responsible for current war crimes and crimes against humanity. Nobody can convince me the American citizens are ignorant, powerless, victims.

Who would you have me shoot first, and what good would it do?

I hold every Canadian responsible for the fact that their government does not break all ties with the United States, complete with a total trade embargo, and a concrete wall 12 feet high, topped with barbed wire all along the Canadian/US border.

Where does that get us?

And, yes, debating you comes in second to doing what I can to save lives in my own country, in my own state, in my own town.

Individual Americans actually are pretty powerless. Unless you have a big wad of cash to throw at the nearest politician, the status quo will remain unchanged. I spend my days sending e-mails to the entire state legislature. I contact government agencies and file formal complaints. I make my town council hold special meetings just for the issues I bring up and have local federal representatives appear before them to answer their and my questions.

I know more than I want about what goes on in this country and this world.

I get e-mails from officials telling me that I am too angry and too confrontational and to please leave them alone.

Blanket condemnations will get you nothing but enemies.

It's - 3 farenheit in Colorado tonight - a tropical temperature when compared to that of the hearts of most of politicians.